trying to understand scanlines....

[bullethell666]

So I've went on Craig's list to hopefully find a better tv to use with my core grafx. I've also been reading up a little about scanlines and such. To my suprise I searched the "free stuff" section and found it overflowing with televisions , monitors,etc . Mainly I found a ton of Sony Trinitron tv's ,some labeled "wega".  I think I'm gonna pick up a 27"   My question is this ... If I get a wega/trinitron crt television(there's actually several models to choose from) bring it home and connect my Core Grafx to it via composite ,will I now have scanlines? Or am I gonna need another component / device ?  The tv I'm using now isn't horrible but I figured picking up a free Sony trinitron wouldn't hurt (with the exception of my back after lugging it upstairs) I'd really appreciate anyone who could weigh in on the matter. Thanks-

[whisper2053]

If all you're looking for is scanlines, then no you shouldn't need any additional equipment beyond the monitor you named. Bear in mind, you'll need to make sure that it's an SD model and not an HD...as the HD ones do not have scanlines.

[Joe Redifer]

The HD CRT that I used to have had scanlines in 480p, but that's it.

[bullethell666]

Thanks fellas. I'll try and keep you posted. I haven't been a member of a forum on years. What's the best and easiest way to post pics? Also, is there a thread with page upon page of pc engine set up/collections ? If so can someone post a link? Thanx

[SuperDeadite]

Scanlines depend on the TV/monitor you are using.  The thick heavy scanline look came from tri-sync arcade and PC monitors.  When displaying 31khz (VGA) about 480 lines, scanlines are tiny, however when those monitors display 15khz, only about 240 lines are used, hence there is empty space between each line resulting in those thick scanlines.

However older mono (15khz) and dual (15/24khz) displays do not display the image that way, they still do have scanlines, but they are only as thick as the space between pixels, and the spaces are the same distance in both the horizonal and vertical lines, meaning you get a tiny grid as opposed to the above lines.

What you prefer is in the eye of the beholder.  I prefer the older original grid look, but with the popularity of candy cabs in home use, the super thick lines are what a lot of people have become used to.

Since scanlines are the space between pixels, generally the larger the display the wider they will become.  For a more accurate measurement the dot pitch rating is the amount of space between pixels.

Sony TVs work a bit differently, their Trinitron tech displays differently then standard types.  Iirc, tritrons use octogonal pixels as opposed to the standard squares.  For this reason even the standard SD Wegas tend to have thick heavy scanlines.

The Sony HD-CRTs use special tech and upscales everything.  Hence 240p/480i content is upscaled and you lose the scanlines completely, they also will have issues with things like 3D LCD shutters and light-guns because of this.

In the end though you really need to find a look that suits you.  For years lots of people were quite happy with their Sony PVMs, but then the thief fudoh proclaimed that Sony BVMs were the best picture ever, so everyone started dumping their perfectly good PVMs for BVMs.  Don't fall into that trap, just get a decent RGB display that fits your needs and be happy with it.

For myself I prefer to use a dual-sync when I can, but the X68000 requires a tri-sync so I have both.  Not counting weirdo devices that need specialty monitors (FM Towns).

[imparanoic]

or you can use a xrgb 2/2+/3 or the nice but pricey xrgb mini for scanlines on hd tv.

definitely the best way to visualise retro game, though the availability in the west for this upscan converter is pretty rare, the official cables are also rare ( I have official super famicom rgb and sony ps1 official rgb cable)

I have also modified my pc engine duo for rgb (though no rgb amp, use xrgb to control the rgb levels)

[xcrement5x]

In the end though you really need to find a look that suits you.  For years lots of people were quite happy with their Sony PVMs, but then the thief fudoh proclaimed that Sony BVMs were the best picture ever, so everyone started dumping their perfectly good PVMs for BVMs.  Don't fall into that trap, just get a decent RGB display that fits your needs and be happy with it.

So true.  I've got a nice 27" Trinitron and a 20" PVM and I am really happy with how everything looks when I play it.  Could the picture be better in some ways, sure, but I'm happy

[Mzo]

I far prefer a CRT or a PVM to the XRGB.  I like the softer look that games have on them, even through RGB.  The most convenient solution I've found is a CRT using an RGB to component box.

Plus, lightgun games!

[Grandiloquence]

Not got the room for a CRT and can't stretch to a PVM/BVM so I invested in one of those "SLG-in-a-Box" gadgets from Arcadeforge. Looks good, can't wait to try it out!

[PCEngineHell]

Personally myself, I am using a iScan Pro and a GBS 8200 on a smaller crt SVGA monitor. I could add a scan line generator into the mix, but just have not felt the need. I may do so however if I ever ditch the crt VGA in favor of using a LCD again. Just depends on my mood.

If you can get a decent old crt based TV, then great. If not, then you may want to invest in something like a iScan Plus or Pro and add a SLG to it and run it into a LCD that accepts VGA in and it will be a fairly cheap solution. Plus you will have the option of outputting via vga or component with a iScan Pro. Buying a SLG and a iScan Pro would be about 200 bucks cheaper then a XRGB.

This here is my s-video modded Duo and Snes mini running into the iScan. I wish I could get betters pics then this, but my camera kinda blows when trying to get screen shots off monitors. Trust me, it looks much better in person. Looks like a high quality, fairly clean image without that emulated look some upscalers end up appearing like. The iScan also seems to minimize the shimmering you get in the image from movement in certain games.

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[Arkhan Asylum]

I just use an XRGB3 on a giant ass TV.   Sometimes I take it somewhere and plug it into a monitor.   

I find the image quality it produces is better than composite + CRT, and it's easier/more longlasting/flexible than getting a PVM or some shit.

I mean, I can plug two composites, svideo, RGB, and VGA into the thing, and it outputs the audio to my stereo system.

and it is ON A 60" TV.

[seieienbu]

I think scanlines are cool and all on a TV that actually has them but I've never liked adding in scanlines via upscalers.  Emulated scanlines always look a little bit odd to me...  If you want a clean picture use an upscaler on an HD monitor.  If I want a retro scanlines look I'd hook up an old TV that actually had them.

[imparanoic]

I think scanlines are cool and all on a TV that actually has them but I've never liked adding in scanlines via upscalers.  Emulated scanlines always look a little bit odd to me...  If you want a clean picture use an upscaler on an HD monitor.  If I want a retro scanlines look I'd hook up an old TV that actually had them.

xrgb doesn't actually upscale, they are line doublers,

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=630556

[Keith Courage]

Some  CRT sony trinitrons do not have scanlines. This may only apply to the larger HD ones. I used to have two 36 Inch CRT trinitrons. One was from 2000 and the other 2001. Neither one had scanlines and S-video also looked like poop. I think this was because it actually had an upscaler much like newer HD TVs. Also light guns would not work.

Now I stick with 27 inch CRT TVs. I can also confirm that I have tested out at least 10 different brands of CRT 27inch TVs and all work well with the s-video mod. Even if the 27 inch TV claims to be HD.

[munchiaz]

I currently use a Sony PVM, and i really love it. I do someday want to get a xrgb so it would be easier to capture footage

[seieienbu]

I think scanlines are cool and all on a TV that actually has them but I've never liked adding in scanlines via upscalers.  Emulated scanlines always look a little bit odd to me...  If you want a clean picture use an upscaler on an HD monitor.  If I want a retro scanlines look I'd hook up an old TV that actually had them.

xrgb doesn't actually upscale, they are line doublers,

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=630556

Informative link, thanks.

[Digi.k]

old thread but I don't recall having scanlines displaying prominently during the years when CRT was the main staple and the best connection here was Euro SCART RGB.  I also had a few Sony triniton TVs back in those days and then a big widescreen panasonic CRT.

Anyway these are screen photos of my BVM even though it's tiny but to really notice the scanlines you have to sit up real close or zoom in on the photograph pictures like these:

Those horizontal lines seems to make the picture feel a bit more higher res if that makes sense.  Sony 9"BVM and component connection.  But again I don't recall the scanlines showing up as strong as these back in the day on normal domestic CRT sets.

[ginoscope]

I love the look of scan lines on older 240p games.  Before I got an xrgb mini I was using the cheap scaler and that had no scan lines and most games looked all pixelated which l don't really like. 

I like having the option of using the CRT or hdmi it depends the game.

[TurboXray]

Those horizontal lines seems to make the picture feel a bit more higher res if that makes sense.

It does, because the pixel height is technically smaller due to the gap of between scanlines. The eye interpolates the difference. Thus it looks a bit higher res.


 As far as HD and SD sets, there is another type of set that came out in the late 90's early 00's - EDTV. They're 480p sets. Depending on the internal scaling algorithms, you might not get scanline gaps in EDTVs.

[Digi.k]

a few more photography shots of scan lines I think I kinda like doing this..

[NecroPhile]

Le Gotz!

Maybe it's just the camera (or my imagination), but the colors look a bit washed out.

[schweaty]

I was thinking the same.  Colors look a bit dull

[SignOfZeta]

old thread but I don't recall having scanlines displaying prominently during the years when CRT was the main staple and the best connection here was Euro SCART RGB.  I also had a few Sony triniton TVs back in those days and then a big widescreen panasonic CRT.

Anyway these are screen photos of my BVM even though it's tiny but to really notice the scanlines you have to sit up real close or zoom in on the photograph pictures like these:

Those horizontal lines seems to make the picture feel a bit more higher res if that makes sense.  Sony 9"BVM and component connection.  But again I don't recall the scanlines showing up as strong as these back in the day on normal domestic CRT sets.

Back when CRT was the norm you'd need a professional photographer to get screenshots like that and even then it would be much shittier, most likely. When the ability to freeze a moment in time comes into play you notice it more. Many many sets have way thicker scanlines than that. Look at coverage in PC Engine Fan or Dengeki PC Engine. I know there was a review of one of the Xanadu games in particular that made me notice the scanlines and that was when everything was CRT.

In the SD analog realm a scanline isn't a thing, it's the lack of a thing. It's where the beam doesn't go. On old video games actually running in 240p (in the US this was rarely seen outside of arcades, computers, and SNES demo kiosks...maybe) the lines will be super thick. Once you get that SNES home and hook it up to your brand new 19" Trinitron that cost $600 you'll see much thinner scanlines because now your running 480i composite, essentially an analog line doubling hack. The image will also be a lot brighter because the beam is covering twice as much ground, but that depends on you're TV's ability to componsate gain, which was really bad a long time ago but eventually became perfect in later CRTs.

We love scanlines but TVs were mainly made for reproduction of film and they don't help film one bit so since the invention of the TV trying to reduce scanline visibility was a constant thing. My 2004 "super fine pitch" CRT produces virtually no visable scanlines because it's really a 720p CRT that accepts lower signals. It's fucking *ACE* for Laserdisc but the effect on games is mixed. It ends up looking like a Plasma or one of the better LCDs.

[TurboXray]

In the SD analog realm a scanline isn't a thing, it's the lack of a thing. It's where the beam doesn't go.

In the vernacular, this is true. But it actually means the active displayed line - not the gap. When people said something has "scanlines", they were referring to the fact that the scanlines were visibly noticeable (because of the gaps), as opposed to being solid (no gap). I'm not nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking, but for the fact that documents on raster effects refer to scanlines as what they are (active display lines). And in demo/homebrew/coding circles, you'll see scanlines referring to the active displayed line (or even the time in which a line would appear during vblank).

[SignOfZeta]

In practical terms for engineers and stuff at the time, you are right. The black line and the signal line are the same. It's only recently that average people cared about "scanlines" (the black lines) due to their absence, and then they became thought of as an actual thing. Really it's just what the beam doesn't cover but would if it were possible back in the day. A 240p image is pretty low res and the beam is only so wide so you get gaps in between. If you could fatten up the beam enough you'd have no black lines but on old displays...

Like a nostril, the punters consider it the hole in your nose but the doctor is only interested in the fleshy parts.

This makes me think...has anyone tried engineering a drop-in RGB display that had black "scanlines" built into it? When I see those things in arcades it's hard not to notice how shitty many of them are and mostly this is due to them being left over TV tech. You could even bake in the mesh if you wanted.

[thesteve]

OK a few points
1 the consumer TV did not line double back in the day, that wasn't until the 480p days
It would place the lines by simple timing
2 the advantage of visible lines it to not display what's not in the original image

Sent from my VS920 4G using Tapatalk

[SignOfZeta]

OK a few points
1 the consumer TV did not line double back in the day, that wasn't until the 480p days
It would place the lines by simple timing
2 the advantage of visible lines it to not display what's not in the original image

Sent from my VS920 4G using Tapatalk

I stand corrected. However I sorta disagree about that image. Visable scanlines are a (usually unintentional) byproduct of a display. If your display produces them, yippie, if not, no big. Neither is the "original image". The PCE puts out 240p, not 480p with a synthetic 000 gap every other line like an XRGB does. Sprite sheets aren't interlaced with black. It's "original" as in "original gangsta" but it's not "original" as in it being in the system somewhere.

[Medic_wheat]

OK a few points
1 the consumer TV did not line double back in the day, that wasn't until the 480p days
It would place the lines by simple timing
2 the advantage of visible lines it to not display what's not in the original image

Sent from my VS920 4G using Tapatalk

I stand corrected. However I sorta disagree about that image. Visable scanlines are a (usually unintentional) byproduct of a display. If your display produces them, yippie, if not, no big. Neither is the "original image". The PCE puts out 240p, not 480p with a synthetic 000 gap every other line like an XRGB does. Sprite sheets aren't interlaced with black. It's "original" as in "original gangsta" but it's not "original" as in it being in the system somewhere.

I have heard many people argus about it.

Some claim that when the developers made the games they took into account there would be scan lines. This in turn leads some to feel the art of the image and display animation is dependent on the presence of scan lines.

Other feel it was never the intension for scan lines to be present.


However, since to my knowledge no developer or sprit animator has ever come forward to say scan lines where the intended look of their games no one may never know.


My thought process is that when the games were being made he limitations of consumer electronics were always a factor of the game design. Similarly to his various types of video inputs as they became more varied to most consumer homes with cheaper and cheaper technology i.e RF connectors leading to RGB, to s video to HDMI and so on and so forth chrome on sync or Lumas or what have you the available tools of the asteroid image of the display also became more varied with the designers intent.


Mind you for many of us we grew up with a SD CRT tv. So nestalgia wants us to think the image of the game must be preserved by the image the tv creates as it was in our memories. Hell first tv I ever owned was a 12 inch tv that had knobs to change changes and volume. By the time it was mind I had to use a pair of pliers to change chanles. If I were to ever find that tv again if buy it in a heart beat simply because I remember t as the first tv I ever owned and had in my room up to when I graduated high school.

[esteban]

OK a few points
1 the consumer TV did not line double back in the day, that wasn't until the 480p days
It would place the lines by simple timing
2 the advantage of visible lines it to not display what's not in the original image

Sent from my VS920 4G using Tapatalk

I stand corrected. However I sorta disagree about that image. Visable scanlines are a (usually unintentional) byproduct of a display. If your display produces them, yippie, if not, no big. Neither is the "original image". The PCE puts out 240p, not 480p with a synthetic 000 gap every other line like an XRGB does. Sprite sheets aren't interlaced with black. It's "original" as in "original gangsta" but it's not "original" as in it being in the system somewhere.

I have heard many people argus about it.

Some claim that when the developers made the games they took into account there would be scan lines. This in turn leads some to feel the art of the image and display animation is dependent on the presence of scan lines.

Other feel it was never the intension for scan lines to be present.


However, since to my knowledge no developer or sprit animator has ever come forward to say scan lines where the intended look of their games no one may never know.


My thought process is that when the games were being made he limitations of consumer electronics were always a factor of the game design. Similarly to his various types of video inputs as they became more varied to most consumer homes with cheaper and cheaper technology i.e RF connectors leading to RGB, to s video to HDMI and so on and so forth chrome on sync or Lumas or what have you the available tools of the asteroid image of the display also became more varied with the designers intent.


Mind you for many of us we grew up with a SD CRT tv. So nestalgia wants us to think the image of the game must be preserved by the image the tv creates as it was in our memories. Hell first tv I ever owned was a 12 inch tv that had knobs to change changes and volume. By the time it was mind I had to use a pair of pliers to change chanles. If I were to ever find that tv again if buy it in a heart beat simply because I remember t as the first tv I ever owned and had in my room up to when I graduated high school.

We have an old thread about this. I agree with you: designers clearly knew that console games we're going to be used on consumer CRT...so developers/designers ABSOLUTELY PLANNED AND DESIGNED AESTHETICS with final display (standard consumer CRT) in mind. 

[SignOfZeta]

Of course. They didn't have $2000 PVMs at home either.

[thesteve]

Early 90s I was repairing sets found  curb side
Even my 77 Quasar had clean lines (I would adjust the focus by them)

Sent from my VS920 4G using Tapatalk

[TurboXray]

 The scanline gap doesn't actually come from the PCE itself, or its signal in particular. Rather it comes from the televisions having a fixed frequency scanrate, coupled with an expected interlaced display.

 The gap between the scanlines, that look, has many contributing factors because TV sets back in the day were garbage/low quality compared to RGB monitors. I'm referring to the beam actually widening (in both directions, but specifically vertically). That's why the gaps might not appear on bright areas or as strong (whites and such), but do on lower luma colors. It's a blooming effect on the beam. Secondly, interlace displays have interlacing artifacts (combing artifacts), so the TV manufacture purposely inflate the height of the scanling being drawn so the overlap would hide interlacing (combined with the blooming effect for bright colors).

 So your scanline experience would vary from model, to brand, or your personally display settings. The TV I bought in my teen years to play my 16bit systems, had a nice clean/clear scanline gap effect. Arcade monitors BITD had more of pronounced scanline gap effect because the beams were sharper/narrower focused. Generally, the better the TV set the more pronounced the scanline gap would be.

[schweaty]

I'm in the very small minority that prefers the brightness and clarity of no scanlines.  To me, scanlines sort of blur an dull the picture.  I understand the argument of scanlines adding depth to the picture, but like I said, I will trade the depth for more clarity and color pop.  I prefer the turbo because of its incredible color pallette and how the software designers used its capabilities.

Here my question, does 8- versus 16-bit make a difference to your preference for scanlines?  I don't play much 8-bit anymore.

[majors]

Here my question, does 8- versus 16-bit make a difference to your preference for scanlines?  I don't play much 8-bit anymore. 

Run everything retro on SD CRT. All CRT's have scanlines. Ergo, all retro has scanlines. Done.

2600 with s-vid mod running on PVM, thick cut bacon scanlines!

[thesteve]

for me personally its not the scan lines but the lack of image processing on the CRT that i prefer
my plasma PVM doesnt show gaps, but does faithfully reproduce the image line by line so its not bad, but CRT still wins for fast display updates

[Medic_wheat]

for me personally its not the scan lines but the lack of image processing on the CRT that i prefer
my plasma PVM doesnt show gaps, but does faithfully reproduce the image line by line so its not bad, but CRT still wins for fast display updates

Well now I would like to see images of retro games running on a plasma PVM for pure curiosity sake.

[SignOfZeta]

The only plasma PVMs I've seen are those monochrome green ones they built into $20,000 laptops in the 80s for mobile service of other equipment. I guess there must have been some transition between CRT and LCD in the PVM world and it was plasma? Interesting.

[thesteve]

Yes it was plasma, with mainly NEC and pioneer units
Pioneer even had some 4:3 units

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[SignOfZeta]

Man, Pioneer plasmas. Such a loss...

[schweaty]

I still have a pioneer plasma from 2005.  Still going strong 11 years later

[SignOfZeta]

My friend has a Kuro from that time period. It's truely fantastic now and obviously would have wiped the floor with any LCD from 2005.

[esteban]

I have a 2005 or 2006 Panasonic Plasma that is absolutely gorgeous. True black, movies are fantastic.

[thesteve]

mine is a NEC plasmasync from around 2004 (PX50XM3A)
had it several years, with little issue