PC Engine on par technically with SNES / Genesis ?

[guyjin]

If people knew how to use the 32X, it would have been good.  They did an arcade perfect Space Harrier on the 32X, but that game was already old by then.

The 32X space harrier (and the later saturn version) while good, are not arcade perfect.

The biggest difference I can think of is the  'bush bug', where harry does not collide with bushes on the ground like he should.

[Joe Redifer]

I am probably one of the biggest Space Harrier fans in the world.  The 32X version is close but not quite perfect.  The frame rate stutters and the game is masked off on the top and the bottom.  I notice no difference when Harrier runs into a bush though.  He still trips and says "ouch!", just like the arcade.  The Saturn version is arcade exact unless you get super anal and pick out things like "There are no coin slots on my Saturn and the arcade didn't have an options screen and you couldn't pause the arcade so therefore it is not exactly the same!"

[OldRover]

The Saturn version is arcade exact unless you get super anal and pick out things like "There are no coin slots on my Saturn and the arcade didn't have an options screen and you couldn't pause the arcade so therefore it is not exactly the same!"

Anyone who says such things needs to be hung by their coin finger to a broken Pac-Man machine.

[Digi.k]

haha I used to to be really dissapointed with the PCE version of Space Harrier not having the checkerboard effect on the ground..

but speaking of graphics I'm still amazed with magical chase and super star soldier

[Digi.k]

its sound isnt to far off from the genesis though snes murders them both in that area.

Murders?  I completely disagree.  I am a big fan of the TurboGrafx-style of sound (mostly just tone buzzes and whatnot, but still pleasant), but the Genesis has better sound capability as well as cleaner digitized sound reproduction.  There isn't anything on the TG-16 that sounds anywhere near as good as the music from Streets of Rage 1 and 2.  The SNES has fewer sound channels than the Genesis, but better hardware to make that sound.  It sounds better for the most part, but the SNES still sounds like a 16-bit cartridge.  The difference isn't mindblowing, and I really hate the overused SNES reverb effect.  This all is kind of subjective here.

I was listening to the music HES file of the pc engine version of Batman and I gotta say thats pretty amazing.. I just wished that Sunsoft made a better game and made more music tracks.. but I'm pretty sure you will be blown away with the music on this game too as well as Hudson's Soldier and Gunhed/blazing lazers games).

[OldRover]

The quality of music hardware is only reflected by the skill level of the musicians that program it. There are a good number of SNES games with terrible soundtracks, despite having a technically superior music processor.

[CrackTiger]

Not really. The 32X's color palette "technically" was better than the Duo, but in reality the TG16 still blew it away graphically. I believe only one or 2 games ever used both processors, and most never used the Genesis hardware except for sound channels. The Lords of Thunder for the Sega CD didn't compare at all, and a 32X version wouldn't have been much better.

Hold on a second, did you just say that the Sega version "doesn't even compare!"?  

[OldRover]

It DOESN'T compare...I have both versions myself and the Sega CD version of LoT is so subpar versus even the US release, it's not even funny. It's a shame such a beautiful game would be reduced to such a flickery, slowdown-prone overdithered washed-out-looking game that was missing a few things, was too easy, and overall felt "cheapened" by the weird, amateur effects they used in parts of it. If you'd never played the original, then sure, the Sega CD version would probably be quite the kickass game, but compare it to the original and it falls on its face.

[CrackTiger]

It DOESN'T compare...I have both versions myself and the Sega CD version of LoT is so subpar versus even the US release, it's not even funny. It's a shame such a beautiful game would be reduced to such a flickery, slowdown-prone overdithered washed-out-looking game that was missing a few things, was too easy, and overall felt "cheapened" by the weird, amateur effects they used in parts of it. If you'd never played the original, then sure, the Sega CD version would probably be quite the kickass game, but compare it to the original and it falls on its face.

So, basically you're saying that the Turbo version has the arcade feel and is much more intense?

Not to mention that the Turbo version was available before SEGA's was...

[grahf]

haha, that Lords of Thunder promo is awesome. On the subject of promotional videos (and snes), did anyone else receive the Donkey Kong Country promo video in the early 90s? I stumbled across it on google, and it brought back memories.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7511271855512729880&q=donkey+kong+country

"Its like, totally awesome dude!"

[GUTS]

Haha at CrackTiger, awesome, I actually laughed out loud at that.  Good times!

[TurboXray]

"doesn't even compare!"

ahhh, good to hear Tallerico-isms making their way through the net. Live on, Tallerico-isms! Live free..

[CrackTiger]

haha, that Lords of Thunder promo is awesome. On the subject of promotional videos (and snes), did anyone else receive the Donkey Kong Country promo video in the early 90s? I stumbled across it on google, and it brought back memories.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7511271855512729880&q=donkey+kong+country

"Its like, totally awesome dude!"

I got one, even though my subscription to Nintendo Power had expired years earlier.

I think that I recieved other spam from Nintendo through the mail over the years as well.

[Odonadon]

"doesn't even compare!"

ahhh, good to hear Tallerico-isms making their way through the net. Live on, Tallerico-isms! Live free..

Somebody watches a lot of EP...

OD

[esteban]

I think that I recieved other spam from Nintendo through the mail over the years as well.

Killer Kutz (Cuts? Kuts?) anyone? It was a music CD for some SNES game whose title escapes me at the moment. Generic techno/dance tracks from what I recall... but I must admit I am curious as to how I would rate the music nowadays. I kinda wish I kept it, if only to rekindle a loathing for it.

[SignOfZeta]

I think that I recieved other spam from Nintendo through the mail over the years as well.

Killer Kutz (Cuts? Kuts?) anyone? It was a music CD for some SNES game whose title escapes me at the moment. Generic techno/dance tracks from what I recall... but I must admit I am curious as to how I would rate the music nowadays. I kinda wish I kept it, if only to rekindle a loathing for it.

Killer Kuts is the OST for Killer Instinct. It came with the game, but I don't recall anyone getting it as regular Nintendo spam.

I have it. Its hella rare. I'll sell it to you for $180. OOP, MIB, WTF!

I had a VHS tape they sent me to promote Diddy Kong Racing. It was narated by John Lovitz, I think. I eventually chucked it. Stupid I guess, I clearly could have gotten $375 for it on eBay.

[OldRover]

So, basically you're saying that the Turbo version has the arcade feel and is much more intense?

Neither version had a true arcade feel, but then again, you don't get the arcade feel even from playing MAME on your computer. But yes though, the original is a lot more intense for sure, it's way more challenging and the music is a lot better.

Not to mention that the Turbo version was available before SEGA's was...

Inconsequential. The PCE/TG version of Exile was made before the Genesis version and is far FAR superior. A similar comparison could be made for both console's versions of Cadash.

[Seldane]

The PCE/TG version of Exile was made before the Genesis version and is far FAR superior. A similar comparison could be made for both console's versions of Cadash.

And yet, both are horrible, super ugly games and they don't take advantage of their hardware at all. Both of them look like NES games.

I'm talking about both the PCE and MD versions.

[SignOfZeta]

Neither version had a true arcade feel, but then again, you don't get the arcade feel even from playing MAME on your computer. But yes though, the original is a lot more intense for sure, it's way more challenging and the music is a lot better.

I've heard this before, and I always wondered how this could be the case. Its LoT we are talking about, right? The game with CD music?

[SignOfZeta]

The quality of music hardware is only reflected by the skill level of the musicians that program it. There are a good number of SNES games with terrible soundtracks, despite having a technically superior music processor.

Well, honestly, part of a musician's tallent lies in choosing the right instrument. The score of FFVI wouldn't impress anyone on the MD, and it isn't because its a mediocre score. Uematsu, and the rest of his company, chose the SFC, and it was a good choice.

I do see what you are saying. Stage 2 of Aeroblasters would sound good on just about anything.

[OldRover]

I've heard this before, and I always wondered how this could be the case. Its LoT we are talking about, right? The game with CD music?

Yes, LoT.

And yet, both are horrible, super ugly games and they don't take advantage of their hardware at all. Both of them look like NES games.

Neither of them look like NES games but neither of them are very spectacular either. None of them are horrible unless you're a "ZOMG DIS GAEM GOTSTA HAEV DA BESTEST GFX OR ELZ IT IS TEH SUX0RZ" kind of gamer...

[TurboXray]

Both of them look like NES games

 
If you can't tell the difference between Exile graphics and other NES games, then I suggest some new glasses

 Seriously though, Exile has some good-to-nice graphics.

[SignOfZeta]

I've heard this before, and I always wondered how this could be the case. Its LoT we are talking about, right? The game with CD music?

Yes, LoT.

OK, so what's the difference?

[Seldane]

He he, at this board, the PCE fanboys are protecting their system, and at the Sega boards (click) the Sega fanboys are protecting their system. I find it rather amusing that people are still having these fanboy discussions about ancient video game systems.

Xbox 360 vs PS3, sure, but PCE vs MD?  

[OldRover]

Glad I'm not a fanboy then...

SignOfZeta: The Sega CD version of LoT had its difficulty greatly reduced (I guess people thought the original was too hard), the soundtrack was changed (it sounded similar but it was wussed out a lot), the sound effects were quite grating and out-of-balance with the music (easily fixable on an original Sega CD but not so on the model 2 setup), there were a few things taken out (probably to aid in reducing the difficulty), and the graphics...this is where it took a dump...dithering everywhere because they couldn't keep up with the original's colour spec, and the game had a lot of flicker (especially in the ice level) and quite a bit of slowdown (especially in the underwater level). Even on "Super" difficulty, I had no problem whipping the Sega CD version's ass seven ways till Sunday. I've yet to beat the original version on Super.

What really kills the Sega CD version for me isn't the gross dithering, the weak-ass soundtrack, the unbalanced sound effects, the slowdown, or the flicker...it's the wimpy difficulty. The game is a cakewalk. The original version WILL hand you your ass on Super even if you're good, but if you know the game (if you can beat Hard on the original without breaking something), you can crush Super on the Sega CD version without breaking a sweat.

And yes...I own both versions.

There's only one other very minor gripe about the Sega CD version...where's the friggin credit scroll at the end???

[TurboXray]

That "ary incorparated" is a complete idiot. I can not understand half of what he's written on that board.

 It's a cool board - with a few MD vs SNES gripes. The genesis(cart) has good amount of awesome titles, but snes is better overall - not taking tech specs into account but just quality and fun games.

[SignOfZeta]

Glad I'm not a fanboy then...

SignOfZeta: The Sega CD version of LoT had its difficulty greatly reduced (I guess people thought the original was too hard), the soundtrack was changed (it sounded similar but it was wussed out a lot)...

I know about all that other stuff, I'm just trying to figure out what went on with the music. Is is a different soundtrack? Is it too quiet, or what?

Since both systems just play the music from audio sections of the CD, I'm trying to understantd WTF could have possibly happened. If you put each game in a CD player and just play the tracks as audio CDs, do they sound different?

[OldRover]

It's a different soundtrack...basically, all the soundtracks were remade. The tracks are all basically the same, but the "newer" versions are just very weak compared to the original ones. I guess you could say that the Sega CD had lower-quality covers of the original tracks....compare the tracks on Kidz Bop to the originals...the Sega CD version is the Kidz Bop.

[Odonadon]

compare the tracks on Kidz Bop to the originals...the Sega CD version is the Kidz Bop.

LOL - great comparison.  

OD

[SignOfZeta]

...the Sega CD version is the Kidz Bop.

Oh that is for shit. I wonder why they did that? My guess would be that T's Music would need to be payed again, and Hudson cheaped out. Pretty terrible, IMO. That sort of thing would really weaken LoT.

[CrackTiger]

So, basically you're saying that the Turbo version has the arcade feel and is much more intense?

Neither version had a true arcade feel, but then again, you don't get the arcade feel even from playing MAME on your computer. But yes though, the original is a lot more intense for sure, it's way more challenging and the music is a lot better.

Not to mention that the Turbo version was available before SEGA's was...

Inconsequential. The PCE/TG version of Exile was made before the Genesis version and is far FAR superior. A similar comparison could be made for both console's versions of Cadash.

Plus the Sega-CD version doesn't even work without the Genesis system.  

[GUTS]

You know what the Turbo CD never had was a good Dragon's Lair animated FMV game like Road Avenger or Revenge of the Ninja.  I wonder if a game like that was even possible on the CD?  It seems like they would have made at least one game like that for it (I mean other than those JB Harold & Sherlock holmes games which don't really count because the video playback is so bad).

[TurboXray]

I dunno, I'd say probably not since the Sega CD had hardware assist for FMV unlike the PCE CD system. Gulliver Boy has the best video on PCE CD (with Yuna bonus CD being as very close second), but still not full screen.

[CrackTiger]

You know what the Turbo CD never had was a good Dragon's Lair animated FMV game like Road Avenger or Revenge of the Ninja.  I wonder if a game like that was even possible on the CD?  It seems like they would have made at least one game like that for it (I mean other than those JB Harold & Sherlock holmes games which don't really count because the video playback is so bad).

Gunbuster came pretty close, but animated everything in realtime and (from what I remember) had cinemas, so it wasn't just non-stop 1-of-4-directions-pushing.

[CrackTiger]

I dunno, I'd say probably not since the Sega CD had hardware assist for FMV unlike the PCE CD system. Gulliver Boy has the best video on PCE CD (with Yuna bonus CD being as very close second), but still not full screen.

What hardware assistance does the Sega-CD have other than 6 megs of ram?

Although I know that there are other bottle-necks involved, wouldn't the Arcade Card's 18 megs allow for some decent fmv?

[Joe Redifer]

other than those JB Harold & Sherlock holmes games which don't really count because the video playback is so bad

JB Harold didn't feature any video playback at all, only digitized stills.  This is a common misconception that I think maybe even NEC made in their advertisings if I remember.

[TurboXray]

What hardware assistance does the Sega-CD have other than 6 megs of ram?

The SegaCDs additional CPU (68000 @ 12.5mhz) can stream data from the CD and decode the compression scheme while the main CPU is free to do other tasks. The SegaCD CPU can also do tasks the main CPU normally does(and faster) or work simultaneously with it. It's a pretty powerful setup.

[SignOfZeta]

Although I know that there are other bottle-necks involved, wouldn't the Arcade Card's 18 megs allow for some decent fmv?

Yeah, it does, which is why 3x3 eyes has such nice FMV. Its still not full screen though. Even most of the 32-bit machines didn't have full screen FMV.

[CrackTiger]

What hardware assistance does the Sega-CD have other than 6 megs of ram?

The SegaCDs additional CPU (68000 @ 12.5mhz) can stream data from the CD and decode the compression scheme while the main CPU is free to do other tasks. The SegaCD CPU can also do tasks the main CPU normally does(and faster) or work simultaneously with it. It's a pretty powerful setup.

You know, I had always thought that the Sega-CD only raised the Genesis to 12.5mhz. Even though I'm again assuming that it's not as simple as it functioning as a second suped-up Genesis(bottlenecks, eblah, blah, blah...), that's still a lot of processor speed.

Sega must've either restricted how the Sega-CD's resources could be used(ala Supergrafx) or come up with some real bunk development libraries, 'cause that's a lot of processing speed.

After looking up it's specs again, I saw that supposedly, only one game used full screen fmv. I'm assuming then that all the other games that I seem to remember looking full screen were scaled up. Which would be another fmv assisting hardware advantage of the Sega-CD.

Yeah, it does, which is why 3x3 eyes has such nice FMV. Its still not full screen though. Even most of the 32-bit machines didn't have full screen FMV.

So 3x3 Eyes actually has real fmv? I thought that it was all realtime cinemas.

[TurboXray]

Yeah, it does, which is why 3x3 eyes has such nice FMV. Its still not full screen though. Even most of the 32-bit machines didn't have full screen FMV.

Ehh.. I wouldn't consider it FMV - more like really fluid animation stored in the AC memory. FMV is streamed to the video display in realtime. 3x3 eyes doesn't do this. SignOfZeta, check out Gulliver Boy. Now that's impressive.

[Joe Redifer]

Sega must've either restricted how the Sega-CD's resources could be used(ala Supergrafx) or come up with some real bunk development libraries, 'cause that's a lot of processing speed.

I think probably both.  They did it with the 32X, too.  Although somehow Core was able to find the correct path to the scaling chip inside the unit with Soul Star, Thunder Hawk/Strike, etc.  I think there might be an option #3... the machine was a bitch to work with (which of course is beget by the first two scenarios).

[grahf]

Ehh.. I wouldn't consider it FMV - more like really fluid animation stored in the AC memory. FMV is streamed to the video display in realtime. 3x3 eyes doesn't do this. SignOfZeta, check out Gulliver Boy. Now that's impressive.

Besides the huvideo, is the game itself any good? I actually just bought a copy on the cheap.

[GUTS]

Holy shit yeah, Core was able to pump out some amazing visuals in their Sega CD games.  Soulstar looks absolutely incredible for a 16bit game, Sega should really have funded those guys to make some first party games and they probably wouldn't have had to release the 32x.  Hell Soulstar looks better than most of the 32x games in my opinion.

I'll have to check out Gulliver Boy, I've always wanted to play a Duo game with actual FMV for some reason.  I remember reading that Hudson had come up with some impressive video compression scheme or something called HuVideo for that game and at least one more.

[CrackTiger]

Ehh.. I wouldn't consider it FMV - more like really fluid animation stored in the AC memory. FMV is streamed to the video display in realtime. 3x3 eyes doesn't do this. SignOfZeta, check out Gulliver Boy. Now that's impressive.

Besides the huvideo, is the game itself any good? I actually just bought a copy on the cheap.

Gulliver Boy is an awesome game. It's a Hudson/RED deal like the Tengai Makyou, Bonk and 'Thunder series'. Its hard to get through(I made it far and then got stuck) because it's fairly non-linear, but its fun.

There's a scene where you wind up in a colloseum and have to battle your way out in a mech which you ram through enemies Ys style.

[grahf]

Sounds pretty good. Is it heavy on kanji? I can handle hiragana and katakana, but i only know about 1% kanji For this reason, i was thinking about trying to play through Tenjai Makyou Zero on SFC instead of Manji or Kabuki, since Zero is pretty devoid of kanji.

[SignOfZeta]

Ehh.. I wouldn't consider it FMV - more like really fluid animation stored in the AC memory. FMV is streamed to the video display in realtime. 3x3 eyes doesn't do this. SignOfZeta, check out Gulliver Boy. Now that's impressive.

If the video comes from RAM, or a disk, its still video. 3x3 eyes definitely has video, and its much more impressive with the AC than when its just running as a Super CD.

[TurboXray]

Is it heavy on kanji?

 If I remember, not anymore than your average '94-95 title. There's a walkthrough for the game - < here >. I played good amount of game, it has beautiful graphics. I kid you not when I say " super nintendo graphics" - atleast IMO.]

 The weird thing is - back in the day I prefered heavily used kanji over hirogana/katakana. To me it was easier to translate as all of the hirogana had not spaces, so I couldn't tell were a word would begin and end. With kanji, the hriogana was used as a prefix or a suffix so it was easer to translate. I still have a few of my translated notes from Xanadu and Ys IV

If the video comes from RAM, or a disk, its still video. 3x3 eyes definitely has video, and its much more impressive with the AC than when its just running as a Super CD.

 Eveything is video in the end  But yeah, it's still not FMV - although it's damn fluid. I do have the arcade card, but man it takes for ever to buffer the scenes/animation. I actually like to play this on the emu though as the loading is hellava lot quicker


 Edit: Oh yeah, make no mistake - Gulliverboy is on my list of games to translate.

[Keranu]

Wow, this thread is a mess. I'll briefly sum up my thoughts on all the subjects talked about in this thread .

1. ) "Pc engine on par technically with snes / genesis ?" - Most definitely, Bonknuts and nodtveidt's posts give proof of that and shows how the PCE also has some advantages over both.

2. ) Memory expansions - PCE was far from being a failure in Japan and the reason it failed in the USA really had nothing to do with the memory expansions. In fact, the memory expansions for the PCE only helped it more in Japan, with the exception of the Arcade Card maybe. Memory expansions also didn't hurt the N64 sales either and the N64 still lived on quite well.

3. ) Sega CD - Sega CD is awesome. Lots of neat shooters and RPGs for it and if you are into cheese like me, you have a shit load of FMV titles to enjoy .

4. ) Best looking console - For me it's a tie between NES and PCE with CDROM2 briefcase. 80's-tastic.

5. ) Sturdiest console - Model 1 Genesis' are pretty good (though I have had a couple problems with them before), but the model 2's are absolute shite. My PCE and Duo have worked great ever since I got them. I only have a second model SNES, which has a couple of annoying problems, but I imagine the original models are a lot better.

6. ) Impressive-looking PC Engine games - There's plenty, here's a small list: Bomberman '94, Gates of Thunder (level 3, 5, 6 especially. They have my favorite backgrounds than any shooter), Lords of Thunder, Sapphire, Ys IV, Dodge Danpei, Shape Shifter, both Legend of Xanadus.

7. ) Legendary Axe II graphics - I always admired the unique graphic style in this game a lot.

8. ) CrackTiger's Johnny Turbo references - lol

9. ) Exile has NES-level graphics - Big lol. I really like the graphics in the Turbo version of Exile, especially the parts with waterfalls but saying it looks like NES graphics is sooooo wrong . The Genesis version looks a lot worse than the Turbo version but it's still definitely a lot above NES level.

10. ) FMV Games - Everyone knows I love to play these, but what makes me mad is how everyone will STRONGLY diss a FMV game like Sewer Shark, yet rate a game like Revenge of the Ninja so awesomely when they  essentially share the same gameplay. I know most people won't find Sewer Shark's style as appealing as Revenge of the Ninja, but c'mon you should at least respect it somewhat if you are going to rate Revenge of the Ninja or Dragon's Lair so high .

11. ) Gulliver Boy - Wow I didn't know this game used FMV and thanks for making this game sound sweet. I will have to check this game out now.

[GUTS]

Sewer Shark is an ugly mess, if I'm going to watch video and press a button every few seconds I want something cool to look at, not the same length of grainy sewer over and over.  The Sega CD version of Road Avenger is the BEST fmv game ever made, btw.  Nothing is cooler than that intro song, it gets me so pumped to get revenge.

[Keranu]

I think Sewer Shark is cool to look at and it's hilariously cheesy. I like Revenge of the Ninja as well, but I prefer Shark's cheesy style over it any day.