Wanting to learn Japanese?

[MNKyDeth]

So... because I really, really enjoy rpg's especially old school style ones I have come to the conclusion I need to start reading some Japanese.

Does anyone have any good recommendations on how to go about learning to read Japanese? I mean I can google search for the best ways etc but I know people here on the forums have done it eother by living in Japan and learning or by other methods.

Please, any advice is greatly appreciated as I want to RPG and understand what the entire story is etc in the games I am playing.

[johnnykonami]

I'm still learning after many years, and it's not something that will come quickly to you, but the easiest thing to start with is learning katakana and hiragana.  Probably in that order, that's how I did it.  You'll be surprised how many titles and little words you can translate just with katakana, as it's just a way to write out English words using the Japanese syllabic system (and other non-Japanese language words too, so if you get stuck trying to figure one out, it might not be English in origin.)  Hiragana, which you can learn right after katakana, is how most Japanese words, particles, and so on will be written out.  You will also see it quite often attached to the end of Kanji and you'll need to know it already to proceed with that.  Good news is you can learn those two alphabets in no time, there are 42 sounds/syllables in either script.

After that, you might wanna take a stab at learning some beginner kanji.  There's a couple sites out there, wanikani is one - unfortunately you have to pay to continue past level 3.  Memrise is another.  You will be surprised how many basic kanji phrases show up frequently in video games.  Buy, sell, open, close, king, princess, key, enter, exit, 1 player, 2 player, start, continue, etc... so even learning some of the basics will give you something to work with.  You will pick up vocab at the same time.  I didn't start out like this, but now I think you should learn the kanji and the vocab in tandem.

I'm still an amateur, and learning it is more of a hobby for me.  I'm far from fluent, and I think there are many members here who know a lot more who might have other advice for you.  But that's how I'd start.  You are a long way off from understanding the dialogue in an RPG, but you will be able to work out menus and items in one with a small amount of effort in no time.

[Siskan]

I'm studying Japanese at the university. While that's not a must in order to learn Japanese, it's certainly a lot easier with a teacher or a few.

What I'd say you absolutely do need is a proper book. I know it's super convenient and often free to find lessons online, but you should know that there will be a lot of strange and incorrect points and there's not much structure to things.

If you are serious about learning Japanese, buying a book should be no hurdle. I'd recommend Genki. And also the workbook and answer key for it, especially if you're going to study on your own.

Try to learn some basic radicals (kanji components) before you move on from the first few kanji. It will help a lot later on, as many kanji look similar to each other. That's probably the only thing Genki doesn't cover properly though. I believe the web would be a sufficient source for this, but there are of course books out there as well.

[johnnykonami]

We used Genki in my classes also, It's pretty much the gold standard for Japanese text books.  I had a good experience and had a really nice professor (who was a native), but it's good to have your own motivation to learn beyond assigned materials which is what any class eventually turns into.  Really learning something comes from applied use.

[shawnji]

I can agree with a lot of what's been said here.  When you do get hiragana and katakana down, you might try the website "renshuu.org".  They have a quizzing system where you can set up study schedules using a wide variety of materials.  Last I checked they have a library of over 3500 kanji with all on-yomi and kun-yomi readings, and thousands upon thousands of vocabulary terms and grammer questions.  Most of it can be arranged by either JLPT levels or Kanji Kentei, so you can set up your own personal schedule based around your level.  The quizzes also track your most missed terms while assigning mastery levels to kanji or terminology that you consistently get correct.  It will quiz you on your most-missed terms more often while still mixing in other material that you're familiar with. 

I worked in an office with several other professional translators who all used it as a study resource despite being at varying levels of ability.  It's an excellent site.  The best thing about it is that's it's completely free unless you want grammer lessons and graphs showing breakdowns of your progress (it even goes so far as to show you what time of day you tend to score better).  I highly recommend it.

[elmer]

Please, any advice is greatly appreciated as I want to RPG and understand what the entire story is etc in the games I am playing.

I agree ... personally, I need to understand what the story is in order to really enjoy the game.

Unfortunately ... I'm awful at languages, and that's after spending many years at schools with teachers trying to drill French, German and even Latin into my head.

If you find that everyone's good advice doesn't work for you ... perhaps you can just choose the "easier" route become a programmer instead, and then help work on translations! 

[johnnykonami]

renshuu.org

Thanks for posting this, I didn't know about this one.  I'm going to try it out myself.

[xcrement5x]

renshuu.org

Thanks for posting this, I didn't know about this one.  I'm going to try it out myself.

Seconded.  I was semi-fluent in Japanese and lived there awhile but it's been almost 10 years since I used it regular for anything besides videogames or other minor reading. This seems to be a really good resource.

[nopepper]

I used this RPG to learn basic kata and hiragana, and it worked really well!

https://lrnj.com/

[cr8zykuban0]

i have my japanese coach on the nintendo ds which a good way to get familiar with phrases and the writing systems with some mini games along with it. I also watch videos from time to time. I really want to invest in a book to help me know more since i would like to visit japan in 2017

[Psycho Punch]

Learning the kana is the easiest part of the whole thing and can be done in a week, please do it before going for books. Romaji learning is only going to hurt you.

This is how I'm currently studying:
1 - Japanese for Everyone - Gakken (old book but a really good, underrated one)
2 - A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar - Japan Times (really good, must buy reference)
3 - Remembering the Kanji - Univ. of Hawaii/Heisig (a really controversial one, search about it, and only buy it if you think you agree with the method)

Here's a table with a list of books that can serve as your first textbook: http://rtkwiki.koohii.com/wiki/Comparison_of_Japanese_Textbooks_Table

I used this RPG to learn basic kata and hiragana, and it worked really well!

https://lrnj.com/

Weaboo Software Products presents
a RPG MAKER production

(seriously, the webpage and the game's screenshots didn't leave a good impression at all, and the paypal links just put me off of trying the free version)

[SamIAm]

I don't want to discourage you, but if you're looking to actually understand the stories in some of these Japanese games, you need to come to grips with certain realities, and set realistic goals for yourself.

There are a lot of people, including people majoring in the language at university, who let themselves plateau after memorizing just a few hundred kanji and maybe a couple thousand words. That's not going to do it. You'll understand as much playing a game at that level as you will watching a movie that's only 30% downloaded in bittorrent.

If you're just looking to learn some menu words and be able to recognize when someone tells you to "go east" or "open the door", that's a reasonable and easily accomplished goal. Some people might also find enough reward in understanding whatever bits and pieces of story they get at a low level that that's worth it, too. I never did, though. I majored in Japanese and spent a year abroad in Japan, but I didn't start playing games in Japanese and actually enjoying myself until I passed the JLPT1 a year after I graduated.

You would probably benefit from learning to speak it as well, which is a whole other can of worms, and is something you must develop like any other physically-involved skill: cooking, carpentry, music, sports, surgery, etc. In other words, you need to learn by doing it a lot.

If you really want to learn Japanese, you need to be hardcore. You need to study for a few hours a day, every day, for a few years. It's far from impossible...many have done it, including me, and I'm no prodigy...but know what you're getting into.

Japanese is a deceptive language. In the beginning, you'll see that it doesn't have many irregularities, there are no extensive conjugation/declension tables to memorize like in European languages, and it's actually pretty easy to pronounce. The grammar seems fairly straightforward, too. This is why there are a lot of people out there going around saying "Japanese is easy". You need to ignore them.

When you get into the intermediate level, you'll start to realize what a mountain it really is. In short, you need to learn to think all over again, and your English ability will throw you off more often than it will help you. You also have arguably the most complex writing system in the world to deal with.

Again, I don't want to discourage you. I just want you to know that if you want to really get somewhere, you can't treat this like kiddie swimming lessons, where you do it for an hour or two a week, and sooner or later you're doggie-paddling around wherever you like. You need to attack it like it's K2, and you need to want it like all the freaks who risk life and limb to summit it.

[NecroPhile]

However well intentioned it may be, that's some of the silliest crap I've heard in a while.  You don't need to be able to read, write, and converse in Japanese as well as your average native speaker to get more out of a game, just as you don't have to tackle the Thimble before you can call yourself a rock climber or go over Angel Falls before you can be considered a rafter.

[SamIAm]

Like I said, if he wants to learn some menu words and some basic directions and is otherwise fine not understanding almost anything else in the thousands of dialogue boxes he'll be looking at, that's great. It would be an attainable short-term goal.

Personally, I didn't enjoy playing games that way, but to each his own.

If, as he said in the OP, he wants to comprehend "what the entire story is", then I'm afraid the picture is not even going to begin to come into focus until he's spent hundreds of hours studying. Finding good resources and study methods is important, but steeling your nerves for this hurdle is critical.

[SephirothTNH]

I don't want to discourage you, but if you're looking to actually understand the stories in some of these Japanese games, you need to come to grips with certain realities, and set realistic goals for yourself.....

So much truth in this post.  I can't tell you how long it will take you because the amount of time we can devote to something like this varies greatly.  With a full time job and a full time family I don't get to study enough per day to reach fluency any time soon.  With about 600 kanji and a couple thousand vocab under my belt.  And what I would figure to be an intermediate grammar knowledge there are still large portions of JRPG story line that I just can't come to grips with. 

It's funny, I think SamIAm pulled that 30% out of thin air, but I would say that's pretty close to accurate.  I can understand about 30% of the story line.  Sometimes less.  Even when I know most or all the kanji in a bit of dialogue it can be a struggle to get actual meaning from it.  I've been pretty proud of myself in solving some puzzles in games.  I remember one in a dungeon crawler that required my knowledge of Solfege, Do Re Mi Fa So, and Music all while reading Japanese.  I was pretty proud of myself and my Japanese progress at the time.  But I still wouldn't say I can sit down with a Japanese rpg and just enjoy it. 

At my current rate I would guess it'll take me another 5 years before I can just sit down and enjoy a Japanese rpg.  And even then I'm only assuming about 80% to 90% total comprehension.  There is still the odd uniquely Japanese stuff you'll run into that throws you for a loop.  Some game I was playing had this bit of dialog that all of a sudden started to talk about belly buttons.  Since it was so odd I couldn't make heads or tells of it.  Eventually I heard from a native speaker it's what we would call an old wives tail.  According to that native speaker the saying was something along the lines of "if you sleep with your belly button exposed you'll get sick." 

But yeah set realistic goals.  Your progress will be fairly quick at first and it will feel great.  You'll go from understanding nothing to menus then to items and status stuff and eventually basic dialog then story elements. It'll all happen pretty fast and feel great.  And you may start to tell yourself "another couple months and I should be able to understand most of this" or "another year and I'll be ready play anything."  But your going to get to a point, some call it a plateau, where learning another 100 kanji is only going to increase your understanding from say 20% to maybe 22% and learning another set of grammar points is only going to take you from 22% to 25%.  When you reach this point don't get discouraged.

[SamIAm]

I certainly don't understand everything I run into either. It's funny you mention belly-buttons, because in the Xanadu I script, I just ran into へそを曲げる - to bend one's belly button. What do you suppose that means?

I looked it up, and it's rather like the English "to get bent out of shape". In other words, it's to let things bother you, let your mood go sour, and let it affect your outward behavior.

I expect to run into this stuff pretty much forever. Nobody ever really masters a language. Not even your native one, when you think about it.

SephirothTNH is absolutely right about the diminishing returns thing. It's when you get into that intermediate-ability/low-return zone that you need to start studying the hardest, but many students sadly go in the opposite direction and hope for some kind of "osmosis" effect to kick in. It ain't gonna happen. I would know, too, because I spent years stagnating in the intermediate stage myself. You need to have your nose in a book or whatever learning new kanji on a daily basis, and for a long time. It's just the nature of the beast.

[seieienbu]

I studied Japanese for 3 years in college and Supposedly, according to my professor, I would've surely passed the level 2 JLPT exam though I was never sure was if she was just trying to build up my confidence or actually believed that I would.  That being said, after 3 years of study, I could play a game pretty well while I had a wordtank in front of me and was willing to spend large amounts of time trying to understand things.  Definitely not everything.  Idioms were indecipherable to me.  The important text was often challenging too.  Meanwhile, you know the stuff that most villagers say in RPGs that doesn't matter?  FF4 example:  "The dark knight is a bit scary bit is cool" ...?  Stuff like that I'd understand well enough.  Items, menus, statuses?  That stuff was all quite easy by the end.  The actual storyline was always what I was the weakest at understanding.

Anyway, my classes met for an hour 3 or 4 times a week depending on which year for 6 semesters.  So, that's roughly 360 or so classroom hours plus the homework I did and the studying, the occasional conversation practice, and the a stack of manga that I translated for practice/fun to, by the end be able to understand most non-story related elements in an RPG as well as some of the storyline provided I was willing to sit down with my electronic dictionary and play the game MUCH more slowly than I would play an English game. 

You don't need to be fluent in real time to get enjoyment out of these games if you can learn enough to slog through then and get adept enough at looking up translations.  I haven't done it in a while, but there's probably much easier ways to go about this stuff now.

[SamIAm]

Yeah, it's ironic that the more important something is, the harder it tends to be to understand. When it comes to big expository back-story, often enough the game has some old guy deliver it in a grandiose and linguistically pseudo-archaic way. Plus, if you're trying to play a CD RPG, there's a good chance that it will be voice-narrated without any text to accompany it. Didn't Ys IV do that in one part?

I was in a very similar boat as you when I finished university. JLPT2-ish, probably in the range of 1000 hours total of proper study in and out of class, could trudge through things if I had a dictionary, and could sort-of-but-not-really "get" what all was happening. Not studying properly during my last year of college is one of my biggest regrets of all time, but literally none of my classmates were doing it either, and the department wasn't going to fail everyone. Actually, my speaking and grammar were above average, but I had a strong dislike of kanji. To be completely honest, I probably only had a good grasp of about 300 or so when I graduated, plus another couple hundred that I could get if the context gave me enough of a hint.

Then I wound up in a crappy job in the middle of nowhere, Kyushu, and thought that better Japanese could be my ticket out. For one year, I crammed nothing but kanji and vocabulary for three hours a day, and I finally got the whole 2000 jouyou kanji under my belt. That changed everything. I felt like I could actually read. Even when I had to look up words, I usually knew the kanji readings, so it only took a couple of seconds. Better yet, though, I found that I could tackle things without a dictionary and still usually get by. This was like the dawn of a whole new era in my language learning.

I really think that nobody is going to be able to feel like they "get" a Japanese RPG until they've studied for over 2000 hours. There's some joy to be had in understanding some of the easier NPC bits and whatever else, don't get me wrong. But to me, playing an RPG at that level is more of a means to an end; it's essentially part of your studying. If you're looking to experience and enjoy an RPG story as and end unto itself, then you will need to have studied your ass off to do it.

Here's an example from Xanadu I. The language is quite plain, and the scene is very simple. It's at the beginning of a chapter, so there's no context other than that the main character, the guy with the blue cape, has just arrived in this town. His name is アリオス, his "rank" or "title" is 百騎長 (a made-up word, basically), and he started the game in a place called クロロス.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32377930/scene.mp4

I wonder if anyone who has studied less than 500 hours could paraphrase what's going on here in some detail? I wonder if anyone with less than 1000 hours could do it without using a dictionary? It's a basic scene, but it sets up what happens over the whole chapter's story. If you didn't "get" what just happened, then what did you get? What are you getting as you continue to play?

I really hope I'm not coming off like a snob here. By all means, anyone who's curious should give studying Japanese by/for playing RPGs a go. I've met some incredible self-taught people, that's for sure. And heck, one of the main reasons I started studying Japanese myself was to play JRPGs. Just know what you're getting into, and have the right expectations and attitude. It could be the start of something really cool in your life.

[deubeul]

Sam, do you have an idea of which PcE RPG would be the easier to understand?
I started (again) to learn japanese 3 months ago and would like to accompany my study with one of them, but I don't know which one could be a good choice to begin with.

[SamIAm]

My strongest recommendation is to play an RPG that you've already played in English, for two reasons.

1. You will enjoy it much more because you won't mind when you don't get something, and you'll understand the overall story no matter what.
2. The fact that you already know what's happening will help you understand specific Japanese words and phrases that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

I re-played my favorite SNES RPGs back when I was more intermediate, and it was much, much better for my learning than playing any game for the first time. In particular it was games that I had played enough so as to be able to remember what individual text boxes actually said.

If you are really hoping to play an RPG for the first time in Japanese, then the easiest one that I've played on the PCE is Xanadu II. The Tengai Makyo games are probably NOT a good idea, because they're loaded with slang and old-timey Japanese stuff.

Maybe Private Eye Doll? That's more of a digital comic than an RPG, but it's quite good. Especially the first chapter.

[BlueBMW]

I took Japanese all four years of High School.  I learned enough to read game titles and pick up on some of the menus etc but forget trying to understand the story in anything.

I think the textbook we used was "Japanese for Busy People" lol

[jtucci31]

I think the textbook we used was "Japanese for Busy People" lol

Heh I googled that book, it's still out there. Thanks for that recommendation, might give it a shot.

This is a great thread and something that's always sort of been lurking in the back of my mind. I can still find great joy in games even when I don't understand the story. It's just great to have translators here to do all of the hard work for us and put some polish on it as well.

[MNKyDeth]

Well, if I ever learn it or not at least this thread has given me an idea of what I might/should need to do in order to accomplish this task.

I have a few projects going on at the moment and was trying to figure out what order I should try to do things in, but it seems if I want to do this I may need to stop one of my projects so I can put in the proper amount of time.

Well, maybe I can acquire some resources now and make that a news years resolution to start focusing on learning some Japanese. I should be able to finish up at least one of my projects by then.

[deubeul]

My strongest recommendation is to play an RPG that you've already played in English, for two reasons.

1. You will enjoy it much more because you won't mind when you don't get something, and you'll understand the overall story no matter what.
2. The fact that you already know what's happening will help you understand specific Japanese words and phrases that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

I re-played my favorite SNES RPGs back when I was more intermediate, and it was much, much better for my learning than playing any game for the first time. In particular it was games that I had played enough so as to be able to remember what individual text boxes actually said.

If you are really hoping to play an RPG for the first time in Japanese, then the easiest one that I've played on the PCE is Xanadu II. The Tengai Makyo games are probably NOT a good idea, because they're loaded with slang and old-timey Japanese stuff.

Thanks for your advice Sam. ManjiMaru is my main motivation for starting to climb that Everest, so I'm aware of having to wait (decades?) to feel totally ready to throw myself in it.

Xanadu2 is another motivation. I'll continue to study waiting for the translation, and will play it in japanese once completed in english. By then...

Maybe Private Eye Doll? That's more of a digital comic than an RPG, but it's quite good. Especially the first chapter.

How could have I not thought about this one? Perfect choice, always wanted to give it a go, it's the ideal opportunity,  thanks Sam!!

[jlued686]

I wanted to revive this thread and ask the folks who were just starting how it's going. Have you picked up any of the books? Did renshuu.org work for you? Or any of the books that were recommended?

I'm asking because I recently decided to finally give Japanese a shot. I have no delusions about being fluent any time in the near future. But I have been fairly consistent for the last month or so. I've got all of the Hiragana memorized and can identify them fairly quickly. I'm about halfway through Katakana now. I wanted to get those two systems memorized as my first step, just to see how it goes. I'm finding it to be very fun. I'm using the Tuttle book "Japanese Hiragana & Katakana for Beginners". It's got a really nice way of learning and memorizing, with quizzes and worksheets included.

Through my work, I was also able to get Rosetta Stone's Japanese Level 1-3 for a massive discount. I'm not starting on it until I finish memorizing Katakana, though.

So anyway, hearing your experiences would be really cool. Hopefully a couple of you have stuck with it. If not, maybe we could use this thread as a support/help resource?

[Pokun]

Yeah I remember I started out learning hiragana and it was very fun. It's important because it opens up the possibilities of all the study material.

Here are my tips I usually give to people that are learning. No matter if you are taking formal classes or are learning yourself, these general guidelines makes out what I think are the most important points. This is from my own experience in studying Japanese:



1.
Learn kana as soon as possible (normally hiragana is learned first but the order doesn't really matter, you need both), and after that avoid using romaji at all cost.

2.
Get a squared noteblock and start filling it with the characters you are currently practicing (one character per big square). Writing will help you remember the characters too. Be extra careful to get the stroke order correct. A few minutes of practice every day should get you very far.
This is the very basics of writing Japanese, and the basics is the most important part. If you don't get this right, nothing will go right in your future studies.

3.
Use a textbook that doesn't use romaji. It's ok if the first few lessons are in romaji, but not the whole book. In the book you study grammar, text reading, vocabulary, standard phrases and kanji for every chapter (the early chapters probably don't have kanji though).
Japanese grammar is generally quite straightforward, it's just that it's a lot you need to learn (but it's not endless unlike vocabulary).
Trying to mechanically memorize kanji and vocabulary out of context is very hard and makes you forget fast. So that's why you should memorize the ones in the chapter you are currently studying. That way your brain associates the words with the context you found them in. Practicing writing words in your notebook is also a good way to memorize them. You can start out by only using kana, this will help out with your kana/writing practice as well.

4.
Do the exercises in the book for each chapter. This gives you a chance to get practical with your grammar and writing studies. Remember that the basics are the most important, what you learn now will affect all of your future studies.
Listen to the cassette-tape/CD and practice by repeating after the reader over and over (mind the proper pronunciation). It feels very stupid to talk to a wall like this but it is necessary. Even if you are fluent in Japanese in your mind, your tongue also needs to get used to the sound combinations so you need to practice speaking out loud a lot.
There's a study technique called shadowing that is useful, but quite hard to do IMO (but if Japanese was easy we wouldn't need to study in the first place).

5.
If you are serious about learning Japanese, you'll probably need to get yourself a kanji book. The kanji in textbooks are a good start but generally not enough. Basic Kanji Book vol 1 is what I started with (plus the few kanji in Genki 1 and 2) and I liked it. Kanji is also best learned in context, so use the kanji book's texts and exercises as well. Kanji gets easier the more you learn so don't get discouraged if it's a very slow start.

6.
When studying kanji, write them in your noteblock every day like you did with kana, and be extra careful that you get the stroke order correct early on. The general stroke order rules are very easy, and you've already learned the basics just by learning kana, so this shouldn't be a problem by now (what did I say about learning the basics is the most important). Proper stroke order doesn't only make it possible for other people to be able to read what you are writing, but it also helps in the memorization process of kanji. And unlike with roman letters, there is only one set of stroke order rules, and basically all Japanese people knows these general rules.
You'll also need to know about radicals. You learn the radicals for the kanji that you are currently studying. If the book doesn't tell you what radical the kanji has, then look it up in a dictionary or on the internet and write the radical in your book beside the kanji or somewhere in your noteblock, that way you will naturally learn the most common ones pretty fast. You don't do this to memorize what radical every kanji has, but to get a good idea of the most common radicals. Knowing about radicals helps out with the memorization process (since the radical more often than not have something to do with the meaning of the character) and also opens up the possibilities to look up kanji, which will be essential for your future studies. I actually learned all the 214 radicals in the end because I'm interested in kanji, but you are perfectly fine by learning only the most common ones since there are quite a few radicals that's not used much anymore at all.

7.
When writing kanji in your noteblock, you might as well write kanji compositions (words with at least two kanji) that you find beside each kanji in your kanji book. These compositions will now be part of your glossary memorizing so you'll need to memorize the pronunciation as well.

8.
You will probably want a bilingual dictionary. You can get by using only free online dictionaries or smartphone dictionaries for a long time, but a paper dictionary is also good to have. There are vocabulary dictionaries and kanji dictionaries. Paper kanji dictionaries requires that you have learned some radicals.
When you get more advanced in Japanese you will eventually want a good electronic dictionary "denshi jisho". They are usually made for native Japanese people though which is why they aren't very useful for beginner Japanese learners. A denshi jisho is much more practical to use than those smartphone dictionaries, and you will soon find it hard to live without one. You'll want one that at least has a "jump" feature, bilingual word dictionary (your language and Japanese, both ways), monolingual word dictionary (Japanese-Japanese), kanji dictionary with radical lookup, touch-pad/screen + stylus (so you can write kanji in it) and physical qwerty keyboard. I use a Casio EX-Word Dataplus 6 (it's a few years old now) and it has all of that plus a lot more.

9.
As you get more advanced it gets easier to read and understand but you still needs lots and lots of practice. Read lots and lots and lots of written Japanese, listen to lots and lots and lots of spoken Japanese. You can use youtube or Japanese radio or TV and have it always on in the background when you are home. It doesn't matter if you don't understand it or not, the idea is to expose your ears to lots and lots of spoken Japanese. It's not enough that you are watching tons of anime. This is actually what did it for me to finally understand rapid spoken Japanese and then finally pushed me over the threshold for actually start talking with flow.


As with anything you learn, you need lots of patience and will to succeed. Do exercises over and over again even though they are boring. BTW I hate studying but I eventually learned Japanese by forcing myself to.

[jlued686]

That's very awesome. Thanks for the tips!

[JoshTurboTrollX]

I'm also learning... Slowly. 


http://japanese-online.com/ - simple beginner's resource
http://easyjapanese.org/ - flashcards and games geared toward writing and speaking
http://nhk.or.jp/lesson/english/ - online magazine and language learning lessons

[jlued686]

If you're looking for a fun way to memorize Hiragana, check out Hiragana Pixel Party on the App Store. It's a neat 8-bit-themed rhythm game. The first batch of levels are free-to-play, so you can download that and check it out. I bought the whole thing because I thought it was fun, and the chiptunes are cool.

[esteban]

If you're looking for a fun way to memorize Hiragana, check out Hiragana Pixel Party on the App Store. It's a neat 8-bit-themed rhythm game. The first batch of levels are free-to-play, so you can download that and check it out. I bought the whole thing because I thought it was fun, and the chiptunes are cool.

I have no delusions of learning Japanese, but, dammit, I'm getting that app.

Like.... now.

[jlued686]

I wanted to resurrect this thread to give a bit of an update and pass along what I've found over the last 10ish months.

I've kept at studying Japanese pretty steadily this year, getting in at least a bit of time each day. I've tried a few different methods and think I have finally found a routine that works well for me. Currently, I'm working through the Genki book at least a bit each day, as well as checking in with the Duolingo app on my phone every single day for between 15 minutes and an hour, depending on how much time I have. I've also supplemented this by watching live-action Japanese shows nearly every day just to have more exposure to the language and how different people speak it.

Here are the materials I've used and my thoughts on each:

Japanese Hiragana & Katakana for Beginners: First Steps to Mastering the Japanese Writing System - This is also known as the "Tuttle" book. This was an invaluable first step for me, and helped me memorize both Hiragana and Katakana quite quickly. It emphasizes stroke order and gives really good tips for memorization by using pictures to associate with each character. In addition, this book provides some vocabulary, as well as some very basic grammar and Japanese reading/writing information. I highly recommend starting with this book.

Hiragana Pixel Party - I mentioned this app previously, but it's a great supplement to the Tuttle book as you're looking to memorize Hiragana. The chiptunes are great, and it's a fun way to learn how to quickly recall Hiragana characters. The app is free up to a certain level, but I bought the whole package because I found it so helpful and fun.

Rosetta Stone - I got a crazy deal on this through my work, and I really couldn't pass it up at the price. That said, I've had mixed results. I get why they immerse you completely into the language, without any English guidance. However, because of this, I found myself not understanding why things are written/spoken a certain way. It doesn't do a good job of explaining, "Hey, in these situations you say or write this, while in others you write this." It causes a lot of frustration, so I've decided to pull back on this for a bit, until I get more of a handle on things. Which leads me to...

GENKI I: An Integrated Course in Elementary Japanese 2nd edition - I love this book and read it every day. I actually just got it a week ago and it's already done so much more for me than Rosetta Stone ever did. Yes, there's English in the book (seems to taper off the further you go), but it does a great job of giving me the explanations I was looking for in Rosetta Stone. And now that I can read Hiragana/Katakana fairly easily, I'm getting so much out of it.

Genki: An Integrated Course in Elementary Japanese Workbook I - This is a companion to the Genki textbook, and also highly recommended. I can't say enough good things about this series.

Duolingo - I love this app and, like I said above, use it daily. It has some flaws, sure. But for daily practice it's really nice. And it's free! The app sorta "gamifies" learning, earning you EXP, in-game currency, counting your daily streaks, etc. I wouldn't recommend using it on its own, but it's a nice supplement and a good way to keep yourself at it on a daily basis.

Future planning...

I plan to keep plowing through Genki, and eventually grab Book 2. Also, as I get more into Kanji, I plan on picking up the Tuttle Kanji Guide, since I had such a good experience with the Hiragana/Katakana Guide. Eventually, I'll pick up Rosetta Stone again because it's good for listening and speaking.

So that's it. How about you guys? Any experience you'd like to share? Recommendations?

[Arkhan Asylum]

I found that Genki sort of sucks in a way because the practices are lost on you if you're not in a classroom environment.   It's like OK YOU BE PERSON A, NOW ASK PERSON B STUFF.       Talking to yourself isn't useful.

So you buy this kinda pricey book that you can't fully utilize.  It does give good explanations of grammar, though.

Japanese From Zero worked better since you can be alone, and it's cheaper overall.

Rosetta Stone was kind of garbagey.  It just barfs things at you with no real context.   You can get free shit on a phone instead to get the same effect of brute force memorizing.   The bright side to the phone apps is you can learn while you poop.  At least you didn't waste a ton of money on RS.

I recently bought a book called 80/20 Japanese because people were going nuts over it.

It's written like shit.  He spends self centered time explaining how lucky he was to get to live in Japan as a kid and pick up on stuff.   Cool story.  That's not helping anyone reading, lol.   

Regardless, it rambles too much and isn't very concise/terse when explaining stuff.  You end up getting lost in a paragraph that could be shorter if he'd shut the hell up.   The book layout makes me itchy.   He should read a book on how to write a book before he writes his own.


All of this being said, the hardest part is always practicing speaking/hearing.   This pretty much requires immersion (IE: Go there).    Everyone I've ever met that took Japanese in college was all on top of it until they stopped taking classes, and then they basically taper off because practicing that in USA is kind of a pain in the ass.   They become rusty and go UHHHH.    Even my Half Japanese coworker tards out because he doesn't speak it constantly.    It's a little depressing/discouraging.

Watching with subtitles doesn't help alot either, because your brain will subconsciously betray you.  You'll read the subtitles in English, and then halfassedly process the Japanese.

You can get Japanese subtitles going, but if you aren't good at Kanji, this only goes so far.


So, where I'm going with this is, you have to kidnap Japanese people and trap them in your house and talk to them.

EDIT: Oh, and be careful using music as a learning tool.  People go OH I JUST LISTEN TO MUSIC AND READ THE LYRICS.

Music lyrics are often poetic and nonsensical.

If you learn Japanese from Spitz lyrics, people are going to think you're a fucking wackbar.   lol

[jlued686]

I found that Genki sort of sucks in a way because the practices are lost on you if you're not in a classroom environment.   It's like OK YOU BE PERSON A, NOW ASK PERSON B STUFF.       Talking to yourself isn't useful.

So you buy this kinda pricey book that you can't fully utilize.  It does give good explanations of grammar, though.

Tip: If you look online for a few seconds, you can get this for free...;) But yes, you're correct that it does give great explanations of grammar, and I've found it very useful because of that.

Japanese From Zero worked better since you can be alone, and it's cheaper overall.

Yes, after your previous recommendation of this book I put it on my Amazon wish list. I'll be picking it up at some point, too. Thanks!

Rosetta Stone was kind of garbagey.  It just barfs things at you with no real context.   You can get free shit on a phone instead to get the same effect of brute force memorizing.   The bright side to the phone apps is you can learn while you poop.  At least you didn't waste a ton of money on RS.

I also took your advice on this earlier, and wouldn't have bought it if I hadn't gotten such a steep discount. And I see exactly what you meant. Like you said, it's brute force with no context, and that makes it super frustrating sometimes.

Watching with subtitles doesn't help alot either, because your brain will subconsciously betray you.  You'll read the subtitles in English, and then halfassedly process the Japanese.

Yep, I do this mostly for enjoyment and only partially to work on Japanese. I'll read signs in the background, and pick up the occasional bit of dialog. But it's not really to "teach" me the language, other than a few words here and there.

Thanks for the perspective, Arkhan. I've read through this thread a number of times throughout this year and have found all of the opinions and resources here really valuable.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Another thing I've found invaluable is disregarding other roundeye trying to correct me.

My friend does this often when he sees my Japanese tweets or comments.   He's like self taught and thinks he is fluent.

He often misunderstands what's being talked about and will call things out for corrections.   and then my Japanese friends end up telling me "disregard that, he's wrong".


basically, if you encounter other non native speakers, and they spit things at you that you don't understand, don't worry.   They probably don't fully either, lol

[xcrement5x]

Everyone I've ever met that took Japanese in college was all on top of it until they stopped taking classes, and then they basically taper off because practicing that in USA is kind of a pain in the ass.   They become rusty and go UHHHH.    Even my Half Japanese coworker tards out because he doesn't speak it constantly.    It's a little depressing/discouraging.

So true, this is me to a T (J?, I dunno).

I can still read relatively well, but that's about it.  My spoken language is very bad, though I can understand more basic spoken stuff, but just forget about me trying to write anymore.  The only thing that's kept me on top of the reading is games and other JP media I interact with. 

[Arkhan Asylum]

The only thing that's kept me on top of Japanese is my

wait are we talking about the language or the ladies now?

ayyyyyyyyyyyyyy