Donald Trump Thread aka End of Days

[seieienbu]

I disagree with Seieienbu's opinions on trickle down economics.

God damn! Ha-dou-ken!!!

...Ryu Hayabusa is from Ninja Gaiden.

[TheClash603]

I disagree with Seieienbu's opinions on trickle down economics.

God damn! Ha-dou-ken!!!

...Ryu Hayabusa is from Ninja Gaiden.

Shoryuken!

[NecroPhile]

...Ryu Hayabusa is from Ninja Gaiden.

Pffft!  You libtards and your fake news.

[o.pwuaioc]

...Ryu Hayabusa is from Ninja Gaiden.

Pffft!  You libtards and your fake news.

Top AP poll: 95% of Trump supporters think that "Ninja Gaiden" is a globalist conspiracy that molests children in arcade basements.

[RyuHayabusa]

WalMart, McDonalds provide millions of jobs, sure. Millions of jobs that don't pay a living wage and give horseshit benefits, if any at all. You sure you want to hold up the Waltons as your example of how "trickle down economics" works? Are you positive, man? McDonald's? Really?

I used them as an example because A), that's generally where people go to complain about a "living wage" and B), because they're among the largest employers in America. Flipping burgers isn't meant to be a career. Do you really think someone should be able to walk in the door and make $15 an hour mopping floors and taking the trash out? Either you bust your ass and work your way up the ladder or use it as a stepping stone towards something better. If you're content to work fast food until you retire because you have no aspirations in life, that's your problem.

I'll help you out here: next time you make this argument, maybe use Costco as an example. You know, a company who has a CEO who makes a decent and reasonable living and pays its employees well and gives them good benefits. Don't use two of the most notorious corporations in the country.

Don't get me wrong, it pisses me off too when I see the pay of CEOs skyrocketing versus how much money they pay their employees. As mentioned before, I pointed them out because they employ so many people and are frequent targets of the "living wage" advocates, whatever that means. What's a living wage? Is $15 really a living wage? How about $20? Fuck it. $50 an hour, full insurance, weekends off for the kids, and a company car and apartment. There's your utopia. Just don't get mad when a hamburger costs $100 and gas is $50 a gallon.

Then we move on to the "fuck those poor people and illegal immigrants stealing our jobs" argument. Are there people who abuse the system? Sure as hell there are. Are they to blame for your job losses while those poor, abused CEOs and wealthy are over-taxed, demonized, and forced to send low-paying jobs overseas? Come on, man. Give me a break. They don't send those jobs overseas because they're overtaxed. They send them overseas because they can pay some Chinese kid pennies on the dollar to make their products. Those jobs aren't coming back unless our minimum wage goes away, despite what our Dipshit in Chief says. He's just scapegoating.

I love how you casually dismiss the impact of all the social programs on the budget. Our social programs account for over half of the budget. We now have generations of people living off of the government and we're importing millions more year after year. As for the jobs going overseas, yes, I hate the fact that so many companies have moved their factories. However, unions are partially responsible for a lot of the outsourcing. Yes, unions are supposed to protect workers and fight for better wages, benefits, etc. However, in some cases demands are too high and lead to companies closing or sending jobs elsewhere. I'm not anti-union because I do think workers need protection from abuses and deserve to be paid a reasonable wage for the jobs they do, and that doesn't mean $15 an hour for greeting people at the front door.

The tax rate for corporations are statutory and a really good bit of red herring to dangle in front of suckers willing to believe that the poor and immigrants are to blame for their woes. Corporations use deductions and credits, and wind up paying waaaaay less than 38%. They're not getting their taxes done by an intern at H&R Block, my friend.

After deductions and credits the effective tax rate for most corporations is about 25%, which is still higher that many other comparable countries like Great Britain, France and other G-7 nations. Plus, one of the main things that is being discussed is eliminating the tax loopholes and credits used by the wealthy, which is a good thing, right? Higher tax rates doesn't necessarily mean more tax revenue and can have a negative effect on the economy. You want to talk about victimhood? It gets tiresome hearing the burger flipping high school dropout spending $5 a day on a pack of cigarettes bitch and moan about "the man" and how the evil corporations screwed them over.

Poor, abused corporations. They wanna give jobs to the poor. But the evil government won't let them. And the Walton family are just soooo upset about not being able to pay their employees a living wage. But the evil government won't let them.

You and your corporate boogeyman syndrome. Without corporations, where are you going to get your IPhone? Where are you going to shop for food and clothes? Who's going to make your video games? Business is not a charity. No business is obligated to hire more people than they want to nor pay a legion of dumbasses $15 an hour to stand around flapping their gums and checking their phones every ten minutes, which is unfortunately what our society has transformed into. Seriously, there is a substantial number of people who have zero work ethic and never will, and to arbitrarily grant them some massive raise rather than base it upon merit is ridiculous. It's the liberal thing to do but still ridiculous.

Now let's be fair, I've whipped hard to the left to respond to your hard right assertions. But the answer, as always, lies somewhere in the middle. Again, Costco is a great example of capitalism and "trickle down" done right. But you've gotta be reasonable about it. Corporate greed is real, just as entitlement abuse is real. The only difference is that corporate greed costs our country far more than a handful - or even "millions" - of poor people cashing $500 welfare checks every month.

I agree that corporate greed is real and I would love to see things done to stop abuses. I'd love to see all the loopholes closed and things put in place to discourage American companies from outsourcing jobs. However, with that said, I think it's time to start weaning Americans off of government programs and take care of only the most desperate of people. Importing millions of unskilled, uneducated people with nothing but the shirt on their backs just because America has a white guilt complex isn't good for the economy or the country as a whole.

[seieienbu]

WalMart, McDonalds provide millions of jobs, sure. Millions of jobs that don't pay a living wage and give horseshit benefits, if any at all. You sure you want to hold up the Waltons as your example of how "trickle down economics" works? Are you positive, man? McDonald's? Really?

I used them as an example because A), that's generally where people go to complain about a "living wage" and B), because they're among the largest employers in America. Flipping burgers isn't meant to be a career. Do you really think someone should be able to walk in the door and make $15 an hour mopping floors and taking the trash out? Either you bust your ass and work your way up the ladder or use it as a stepping stone towards something better. If you're content to work fast food until you retire because you have no aspirations in life, that's your problem.

If a job is necessary to a company, then it is necessary to be paid enough to make it worth a worker's time.  $7.15 per hour is not enough to justify working the job in many places; the federal minimum wage needs to be higher.  No, you shouldn't be able to afford a family of 3 in a 4 bedroom hours on a single minimum wage job but that's not the point of minimum wage.  If you are working full time then you should be able to afford to rent a single bedroom apartment, make car payments, be able to eat, pay for health care, and have a bit left over for clothes/car insurance/etc.

I'll help you out here: next time you make this argument, maybe use Costco as an example. You know, a company who has a CEO who makes a decent and reasonable living and pays its employees well and gives them good benefits. Don't use two of the most notorious corporations in the country.

Don't get me wrong, it pisses me off too when I see the pay of CEOs skyrocketing versus how much money they pay their employees.

That's clearly not the case from every other point you try to make.  You blame workers wanting more money when already rich CEOs closing down jobs and moving overseas.

[RyuHayabusa]

Seieienbu, name me a single corporation that starts it's workers at $7.15. I know Wal-Mart doesn't. Kroger doesn't. Target doesn't, I believe. McDonald's doesn't. I don't know of a single one. There might be some out there but I don't know any.

As for blaming workers, I'm making points that liberals don't want to hear, namely that flipping burgers isn't a career and $15 an hour for a greeter is ridiculous. Stop corporate abuses but quit acting like wealthy people don't pay their fair share of taxes. Liberals propagate this idea that if someone is rich it's because some rich guy fucked them over.

Lastly, what is your ideal system of economics? If things are so bad in America, what system should we be using?

[NecroPhile]

"I was talking about living wages, not trickle down!!!"

Pick an argument, for fucks sake.

[seieienbu]

Seieienbu, name me a single corporation that starts it's workers at $7.15. I know Wal-Mart doesn't. Kroger doesn't. Target doesn't, I believe. McDonald's doesn't. I don't know of a single one. There might be some out there but I don't know any.

As for blaming workers, I'm making points that liberals don't want to hear, namely that flipping burgers isn't a career and $15 an hour for a greeter is ridiculous. Stop corporate abuses but quit acting like wealthy people don't pay their fair share of taxes. Liberals propagate this idea that if someone is rich it's because some rich guy fucked them over.

I feel like everything I said in my last post applies directly to this.  Even if Walmart does pay its employees more than $7.15/hour, can a person working full time at Wal-mart (or the more common 39.5 hours to ensure that they don't get benefits) afford the things I listed before:  rent a single bedroom apartment, make car payments, be able to eat, pay for health care, and have a bit left over for clothes/car insurance/etc.?  No, being the kid that brings in the karts from the parking lot shouldn't be your end goal but the company should still pay enough to where someone doing that job full time can live.

Lastly, what is your ideal system of economics? If things are so bad in America, what system should we be using?

As stated earlier, Scandinavian countries have the highest standard of living.  Perhaps trying to be more like those countries would be a start? 

I feel that America is one of the best places in the world in which to be rich.  At the same time, I feel that it is not one of the best places in the world to be in the middle of the pack.  I feel that an economic system designed around making the middle class strong and healthy would be ideal.  I'm much more concerned about the people in the middle than I am the guy at the top.

[ToyMachine78]

I disagree with Seieienbu's opinions on trickle down economics.

God damn! Ha-dou-ken!!!

...Ryu Hayabusa is from Ninja Gaiden.

Touche

[o.pwuaioc]

I think people who keep saying that $15/hr is greedy forget that it's 2017. If 1968 minimum wage was adjusted for inflation, it would be over $10, but even that is misleading, for while products are cheaper than ever, services (and college!) is through the roof. People say flipping burgers isn't a career, but despite the lowest taxes on the rich in history, full time salaried positions have not appeared, and people either flip burgers are starve.

[RyuHayabusa]

I feel like everything I said in my last post applies directly to this.  Even if Walmart does pay its employees more than $7.15/hour, can a person working full time at Wal-mart (or the more common 39.5 hours to ensure that they don't get benefits) afford the things I listed before:  rent a single bedroom apartment, make car payments, be able to eat, pay for health care, and have a bit left over for clothes/car insurance/etc.?  No, being the kid that brings in the karts from the parking lot shouldn't be your end goal but the company should still pay enough to where someone doing that job full time can live.

One of my friends' daughter has been with Wal-Mart for a little over a year and is making $11 an hour already working in the electronics department. There are such things as raises and other options. Also, like I mentioned before, most of these kinds of jobs are entry level jobs where you either dedicate yourself and work you way up the managerial ladder or use it as a stepping stone to something better. I know shit happens and sometimes life throws you a curveball but you shouldn't be 45 years old with three kids trying to make ends meet on minimum wage. That's why I say go to college, learn a trade, or at least become some sort of retail manager before you go having kids that you can't afford to take care and fuck your life up. Again, personal responsibility. Get some stability in your life. Get married and established. People do it all the time and it's not just the super wealthy. Not everyone who is well off was born with a silver spoon in their mouths. Despite what Obama might have told you, yes, if you do something with your life you did it. You built that.

As stated earlier, Scandinavian countries have the highest standard of living.  Perhaps trying to be more like those countries would be a start?

Denmark and other Scandinavian countries are portrayed by Bernie Sanders and other liberals as being some utopia but it's really not. Some of the stats are nice but if you look below the surface you find that Denmark is in trouble because of enormous private debt being built up and the fact that the welfare programs are supported by oil revenues, which are suffering. Productivity is stagnant and taxation is insane. Yes, many of the stats are impressive but it's not all perfect like Bernie might have you think. Also, what innovation do you see coming from Scandinavia? The drive for innovation and big ideas isn't there because the government is just going to take everything anyway whereas here in America, if you have a big idea or if you work twice as hard as the other guy you can make it big. One of my favorite guitarists, Yngwie Malmsteen, has long talked about Scandinavia, being from Sweden, and how there was nothing to drive the people there and he knew if he wanted to get anywhere he had to come to America. Don't let anyone tell you "trickle down economics" doesn't work. Even crazy Uncle Joe Biden voted for the 1986 tax cuts. Letting people keep more of their own money along with creating a better environment for corporations and small business to expand and create jobs is how you stimulate the economy. Plus you bring a few trillion dollars back into the economy by offering a reasonable repatriation rate for the wealthy to bring money back from overseas accounts. Exorbitant tax rates and endless government programs is not the answer.
 

I feel that America is one of the best places in the world in which to be rich.  At the same time, I feel that it is not one of the best places in the world to be in the middle of the pack.  I feel that an economic system designed around making the middle class strong and healthy would be ideal.  I'm much more concerned about the people in the middle than I am the guy at the top.

America is still a great place to be middle class. However, admittedly America has increasingly become like an hourglass, with all the sand being at the top and bottom quickly passing through the middle. I'm all for closing all the loopholes used to avoid paying taxes and implementing policies to discourage sending jobs out of the country. I do feel that many corporations have screwed America over and bolstered rival nations like China at the expense of the American worker. Where would China be today without American corporations outsourcing the manufacturing of their products the past several decades? Something should've been done to curb this decades ago. However, this isn't all corporations and the benefits of trickle down economics have still been felt not only through the countless technological innovations we enjoy in our everyday lives but the millions of middle class people who've done well working a 40 hour week and owning a house, multiple vehicles and raising their kids.

[ToyMachine78]

I think people who keep saying that $15/hr is greedy forget that it's 2017. If 1968 minimum wage was adjusted for inflation, it would be over $10, but even that is misleading, for while products are cheaper than ever, services (and college!) is through the roof. People say flipping burgers isn't a career, but despite the lowest taxes on the rich in history, full time salaried positions have not appeared, and people either flip burgers are starve.

College expense is absolutely ridiculous. One reason is that they are turning the damn things into country clubs. What happened to basic cinder block dorms? At the U of SC, they are all being torn down and replaced with resort style apartment suites, with gourmet eateries and Starbucks in every lobby.

I attended school there from 96-2000, and the campus is pretty unrecognizable from all of the updates, renovations, and new construction.

Its a Hell of a lot nicer, but the the students are paying triple what I payed to go there. Sad thing is, most of the increase in tuition and fees is going to pay for the country club lifestyle, and hasn't improved the actual education in most cases.

[seieienbu]

One of my friends' daughter has been with Wal-Mart for a little over a year and is making $11 an hour already working in the electronics department. There are such things as raises and other options. Also, like I mentioned before, most of these kinds of jobs are entry level jobs where you either dedicate yourself and work you way up the managerial ladder or use it as a stepping stone to something better. I know shit happens and sometimes life throws you a curveball but you shouldn't be 45 years old with three kids trying to make ends meet on minimum wage. That's why I say go to college, learn a trade, or at least become some sort of retail manager before you go having kids that you can't afford to take care and fuck your life up. Again, personal responsibility. Get some stability in your life. Get married and established. People do it all the time and it's not just the super wealthy. Not everyone who is well off was born with a silver spoon in their mouths. Despite what Obama might have told you, yes, if you do something with your life you did it. You built that.

I believe this is the third time that I've stated as such, but minimum wage jobs should be able to pay the necessary bills for a single individual to survive.  I do not believe that you should be able to support 5 people on a minimum wage job; that is ridiculous.  That said, it is absolutely equally ridiculous if you work 40 hours a week and cannot afford rent, transportation, bills, insurance, food, and clothing. 

If a "job creator" has a job that he needs done for 40 hours a week then he needs to pay his employee enough to pay for the things I have listed above.  I do not mean new $200 Air Jordans every six months and the newest iPhone every year or whenever.  I'm not saying living in the greatest loft in downtown Manhattan.  It is unethical not pay employees enough to where if they are working they cannot afford these basic things.  Nothing on my list is frivolous. 

America is still a great place to be middle class. However, admittedly America has increasingly become like an hourglass, with all the sand being at the top and bottom quickly passing through the middle.

The "sand at the bottom" to me this sounds like blaming middle class problems on the poor rather than on the group that has gained almost all new wealth in the US while everyone else stagnated.

[OldRover]

"Liberals"

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Emerald Rocker]

I have no problem with a locality choosing their own minimum wage.  San Francisco citizens want $15?  Go ahead and implement it.  If that works for them, that's great.  If it doesn't work out, then they can figure out how to fix it.  It's not my problem, so it shouldn't be my decision.

Imposing that kind of wage at the federal or state standard becomes my problem.  While that might be workable for some major cities, it would be incredibly destructive to pretty much everywhere else -- including the town where I live.  Keep decisions on minimum wage local.

minimum wage jobs should be able to pay the necessary bills for a single individual to survive

I disagree with this in theory; I see value in low-paying, high-turnover jobs that are intended to be manned by dependents.  But I also recognize that reality means people in some regions are taking entry-level jobs out of necessity to support themselves and family.  Which is another reason why I think it's best for the decision on minimum wage to be made locally: circumstances vary.

[seieienbu]

I have no problem with a locality choosing their own minimum wage.  San Francisco citizens want $15?  Go ahead and implement it.  If that works for them, that's great.  If it doesn't work out, then they can figure out how to fix it.  It's not my problem, so it shouldn't be my decision.

Imposing that kind of wage at the federal or state standard becomes my problem.  While that might be workable for some major cities, it would be incredibly destructive to pretty much everywhere else -- including the town where I live.  Keep decisions on minimum wage local.

I actually very much agree with this sentiment.  What's necessary to live in San Francisco is not necessary to live in a small rural town.  I just know for a fact that where I live and in nearby areas the federal minimum wage will likely always be the minimum wage so it will need to be increased at the federal level for any sort of gain to the working poor to actually be felt.

[BlueBMW]

The whole minimum wage thing is so frustrating.  The right wants to pay people peanuts so they can boost corporate profits.  The left wants people to make enough to survive.

My opinion?  If you want an employee then you should pay a living wage.  That person is committing their time and labor to your company.  Whether its pushing carts, flipping burgers, or sitting behind a desk managing billions of dollars.  They are a human being committing their time to your company.  That is worth at least a livable wage.  If you cant afford that, then you cant afford to have an employee.  Build a robot instead.

The latest argument I'm seeing now is that price gouging during disasters is GOOD?  What the actual fuck?  They say it promotes companies to get goods where they are needed, prevents hoarding blah blah blah.  All I see if that you're ripping off people who are down because you can.  Companies shouldn't need a financial incentive to take care of their customers when they are in need.  Those customers take care of the company all year round, year after year.  The one time a disaster hits and their customers need help, the company should suck it up and help, not take advantage of them.  These are people we are talking about... not numbers on  spreadsheet.

[Emerald Rocker]

The right wants to pay people peanuts so they can boost corporate profits

This is an unfair representation of the conservative argument.  It might be what some lobbyists and shareholders are actually thinking, but it's a mistake to treat that as the voice of the right.  The more prevalent conservative rationale behind keeping business costs low is so that businesses can grow and pay their employees more.  There are also sub-arguments such as providing minors with experience, providing relief to overworked small business owners (who often hire part-time labor, not full-time), etc.

Regarding the idea of paying a living wage -- if we assume that all 40-hour jobs should pay a living wage, that amount still varies from town to town.  It also varies depending on household composition.  For example, in Dallas County, living wage is $11 for a single adult, $22 for a single adult with child, but only $12 for two adults with child.

If you set the living wage at the single adult level, then you're screwing over people with kids.

If you set the living wage at the single adult + child level, then you're killing businesses and overpaying people who aren't single parents.

If you set the level at two adults + child, then you're back to screwing over single parents.

It's a frustrating discussion because the discussion is being held at the national level, but there's no national answer.  Individual localities know their demographics and needs better than the rest of the nation does.

(As a side note, I'm opposed to price-gouging people who are facing a disaster.  Price-gouging is only good when we're talking about TurboGrafx sellers on eBay.  For disaster scenarios, I prefer rationing/limiting sales to prevent hoarding.  Pooling necessities for relief distribution also helps mitigate the risk of hoarders grabbing everything.)

[itsatarp]

The whole minimum wage thing is so frustrating.  The right wants to pay people peanuts so they can boost corporate profits.  The left wants people to make enough to survive.

My opinion?  If you want an employee then you should pay a living wage.  That person is committing their time and labor to your company.  Whether its pushing carts, flipping burgers, or sitting behind a desk managing billions of dollars.  They are a human being committing their time to your company.  That is worth at least a livable wage.  If you cant afford that, then you cant afford to have an employee.  Build a robot instead.

Why do you think unskilled labor should be rewarded the same opportunities that someone who has taken the time to get a degree, learn a skilled trade, or worked their way from the bottom up the ladder? I am being serious.

Flipping burgers is an entry level, no skill required, job. Entry level is not the way to have the newest iphone, killer apartment/house, nice new/newer car, go on vacations, and eat whatever you want. You make something of yourself and have a career for those things. This is not a corporate  responsibility, the individual is responsible for this decision. For decades, this is how it has been and people survived. Worked 2 jobs if needed, but now, all of a sudden, someone should be more compensated for having no skills because???? What? Life is hard? Always has been and always will be. The only thing that has changed is the attitude of entitlement.

I laugh every time I hear of this complaint. These people willingly took these jobs when offered, then turn around and complain that they need more money for doing the same thing they agreed to do from the start. Or start a gofundme, because, why work for something, it should just be given to you because you want it and other people should do the lifting for you.

My opinion, if you want a living wage, then make yourself valuable enough to be able to earn it. This isn't a world where you can sit around and wait for somebody else to do it for you.

[itsatarp]

I believe this is the third time that I've stated as such, but minimum wage jobs should be able to pay the necessary bills for a single individual to survive.  I do not believe that you should be able to support 5 people on a minimum wage job; that is ridiculous.  That said, it is absolutely equally ridiculous if you work 40 hours a week and cannot afford rent, transportation, bills, insurance, food, and clothing. 

If you can't make it on 40 hours a week, then work 80. This is how past generations that took pride in themselves did it and it is proven to work.

[OldRover]

It seems some people don't understand the whole point of implementing the minimum wage and should look up some history.

[LostFlunky]

I believe this is the third time that I've stated as such, but minimum wage jobs should be able to pay the necessary bills for a single individual to survive.  I do not believe that you should be able to support 5 people on a minimum wage job; that is ridiculous.  That said, it is absolutely equally ridiculous if you work 40 hours a week and cannot afford rent, transportation, bills, insurance, food, and clothing. 

If you can't make it on 40 hours a week, then work 80. This is how past generations that took pride in themselves did it and it is proven to work.

Yeah, my father and father-in-law who worked all the time and never took a vacation were happy to do their part and die right after retirement. Sounds like a working plan...

[BlueBMW]

What does paying low skill labor a livable wage have to do with people who have better skills and degrees?  Of course those people should be paid more.  Unfortunately out corporate run country doesn't want to pay anyone decently.   Why have wages basically been flat for the last forty years despite massive productivity gains?

The right has been pushing this trickle down economic theory for so long and we've tried it.  It doesn't trickle down.  It's like telling Mexico they can have whatever water trickles down to them in the Colorado River... guess what that shits dry by the time it hits the border because we've taken it all.

[LostFlunky]

It seems some people don't understand the whole point of implementing the minimum wage and should look up some history.

Summary - business generally will only behave ethically to avoid legislation.

[itsatarp]

It seems some people don't understand the whole point of implementing the minimum wage and should look up some history.

Supply and demand. What is your point?

[itsatarp]

I believe this is the third time that I've stated as such, but minimum wage jobs should be able to pay the necessary bills for a single individual to survive.  I do not believe that you should be able to support 5 people on a minimum wage job; that is ridiculous.  That said, it is absolutely equally ridiculous if you work 40 hours a week and cannot afford rent, transportation, bills, insurance, food, and clothing. 

If you can't make it on 40 hours a week, then work 80. This is how past generations that took pride in themselves did it and it is proven to work.

Yeah, my father and father-in-law who worked all the time and never took a vacation were happy to do their part and die right after retirement. Sounds like a working plan...

So they wouldn't have died if they didn't work so much? False equivalency. They chose those paths and were victims of circumstance. Just like you and me. If I work until I die because of my choices, I won't blame anyone but myself.

[NecroPhile]

If it'd be "incredibly destructive" to raise minimum wage above $7.25 now, why didn't every company go bankrupt in the 60s when minimum wage was $10+ (adjusted for inflation).

Why do you think unskilled labor should be rewarded the same opportunities that someone who has taken the time to get a degree, learn a skilled trade, or worked their way from the bottom up the ladder? I am being serious.

Can you read?  Nothing BMW said comes even remotely close to saying everyone should receive the exact same pay.

Flipping burgers is an entry level, no skill required, job. Entry level is not the way to have the newest iphone, killer apartment/house, nice new/newer car, go on vacations, and eat whatever you want.

In what world does "being paid enough to survive" equal being able to afford any and every luxury?  Since you're being serious, I gotta ask: are you retarded?

[itsatarp]

What does paying low skill labor a livable wage have to do with people who have better skills and degrees?  Of course those people should be paid more.  Unfortunately out corporate run country doesn't want to pay anyone decently.   Why have wages basically been flat for the last forty years despite massive productivity gains?

The right has been pushing this trickle down economic theory for so long and we've tried it.  It doesn't trickle down.  It's like telling Mexico they can have whatever water trickles down to them in the Colorado River... guess what that shits dry by the time it hits the border because we've taken it all.

If what you say were even remotely true, you would hear non stop complaint in every industry about wages. Legitimate complaints. Reality is, you only hear about it pertaining to entry level, non skilled labor. Millions get paid decently, otherwise, according to your observations, nobody could pay any of their bills or own anything. Look around you, is that really the case? Trying to bring everyone down to accommodate the lowest common denominator, and falsely blaming the top of the chain is a short sighted recipe for disaster.

[itsatarp]

If it'd be "incredibly destructive" to raise minimum wage above $7.25 now, why didn't every company go bankrupt in the 60s when minimum wage was $10+ (adjusted for inflation).

Because inflation is only part of the equation. Nice cherry pick. How did people survive 17% interest in the 80's on minimum wage?

In what world does "being paid enough to survive" equal being able to afford any and every luxury?  Since you're being serious, I gotta ask: are you retarded?

Only if I try to relate on your level.

[LostFlunky]

What does paying low skill labor a livable wage have to do with people who have better skills and degrees?  Of course those people should be paid more.  Unfortunately out corporate run country doesn't want to pay anyone decently.   Why have wages basically been flat for the last forty years despite massive productivity gains?

The right has been pushing this trickle down economic theory for so long and we've tried it.  It doesn't trickle down.  It's like telling Mexico they can have whatever water trickles down to them in the Colorado River... guess what that shits dry by the time it hits the border because we've taken it all.

If what you say were even remotely true, you would hear non stop complaint in every industry about wages. Legitimate complaints. Reality is, you only hear about it pertaining to entry level, non skilled labor. Millions get paid decently, otherwise, according to your observations, nobody could pay any of their bills or own anything. Look around you, is that really the case? Trying to bring everyone down to accommodate the lowest common denominator, and falsely blaming the top of the chain is a short sighted recipe for disaster.

Yes it is the case.  Pay is the number one reason people leave one job for another - regardless of industry, education, pay level etc...

[o.pwuaioc]

If what you say were even remotely true, you would hear non stop complaint in every industry about wages. Legitimate complaints. Reality is, you only hear about it pertaining to entry level, non skilled labor.

BULL FUCKING SHIT. Now I know you're talking out of your ass.

Why should anyone engage you further when you're deliberately lying and making shit up?

[NecroPhile]

If what you say were even remotely true, you would hear non stop complaint in every industry about wages. Legitimate complaints. Reality is, you only hear about it pertaining to entry level, non skilled labor. Millions get paid decently, otherwise, according to your observations, nobody could pay any of their bills or own anything. Look around you, is that really the case? Trying to bring everyone down to accommodate the lowest common denominator, and falsely blaming the top of the chain is a short sighted recipe for disaster.

Yep, nobody has complained about the the shrinking middle class or stagnant wages. 

You've answered my previous question: you are retarded (and a troll liar piece of shit, but who's counting?).

Because inflation is only part of the equation. Nice cherry pick. How did people survive 17% interest in the 80's on minimum wage?

I don't know what ignorant point you're trying to make here, but the fact remains that minimum wage peeked in the late 60s in terms of buying power, and it was substantially higher than what minimum wage will buy today; if a higher minimum wage didn't destroy companies then, why would it now?

[itsatarp]

What does paying low skill labor a livable wage have to do with people who have better skills and degrees?  Of course those people should be paid more.  Unfortunately out corporate run country doesn't want to pay anyone decently.   Why have wages basically been flat for the last forty years despite massive productivity gains?

The right has been pushing this trickle down economic theory for so long and we've tried it.  It doesn't trickle down.  It's like telling Mexico they can have whatever water trickles down to them in the Colorado River... guess what that shits dry by the time it hits the border because we've taken it all.

If what you say were even remotely true, you would hear non stop complaint in every industry about wages. Legitimate complaints. Reality is, you only hear about it pertaining to entry level, non skilled labor. Millions get paid decently, otherwise, according to your observations, nobody could pay any of their bills or own anything. Look around you, is that really the case? Trying to bring everyone down to accommodate the lowest common denominator, and falsely blaming the top of the chain is a short sighted recipe for disaster.

Yes it is the case.  Pay is the number one reason people leave one job for another - regardless of industry, education, pay level etc...

Correct, but my question was pertaining to people not being able to survive, not happiness. I think we both would agree you have a greater chance to make more money when you aren't in the entry level. Maybe not happy, but you can make more.

I assume, that your previous comments about your grandfather and father were made to show me I am wrong. To me that doesn't matter. I do hope, and assume you do, that you appreciate all that both did so you could become who you are. I love honorable people who can put what they want out of their minds, to do what is needed for their families. It reminds me of my own family and we should be humbled by what they achieved and never once considered giving up on us.

[LostFlunky]

I assume, that your previous comments about your grandfather and father were made to show me I am wrong. To me that doesn't matter. I do hope, and assume you do, that you appreciate all that both did so you could become who you are. I love honorable people who can put what they want out of their minds, to do what is needed for their families. It reminds me of my own family and we should be humbled by what they achieved and never once considered giving up on us.

How can you expect (and love) honour on an individual basis and not on a corporate basis?

[itsatarp]

If what you say were even remotely true, you would hear non stop complaint in every industry about wages. Legitimate complaints. Reality is, you only hear about it pertaining to entry level, non skilled labor. Millions get paid decently, otherwise, according to your observations, nobody could pay any of their bills or own anything. Look around you, is that really the case? Trying to bring everyone down to accommodate the lowest common denominator, and falsely blaming the top of the chain is a short sighted recipe for disaster.

Yep, nobody has complained about the the shrinking middle class or stagnant wages. 

You've answered my previous question: you are retarded (and a troll liar piece of shit, but who's counting?).

Because inflation is only part of the equation. Nice cherry pick. How did people survive 17% interest in the 80's on minimum wage?

I don't know what ignorant point you're trying to make here, but the fact remains that minimum wage peeked in the late 60s in terms of buying power, and it was substantially higher than what minimum wage will buy today; if a higher minimum wage didn't destroy companies then, why would it now?

Look, lets clear the air. I would be lying if I said I wasn't flattered by your hard-on when I come around. But, as I was saying at the beginning, you aren't what I look for. I am not attracted to people who mistake a condescending attitude with strength, or strength in numbers as superiority. I am not into people who feel they solely have all knowledge and facts, and I like strong people, ones who don't need to compensate at every turn. I like people who aren't so weak, that they scream and shout how right they are about everything even after claiming otherwise. I like people with substance. You have none. Text book internet arguer, zero originality. You are a dime a dozen. I can go to any internet forum and there you are. The guy that has the supermodel wife, 10 inch ding dong, financial expertise and that guy that makes anyone who is in his presence, 100% better. You are, in your mind, the GOAT.

I don't want to be your peer or ever on your level. It is difficult to even try to have a discussion with the likes of you but you always mistake that for you "winning" at every turn. You actively have and use the word "chucklefuck" in your vocabulary. I don't know where to even begin with that. My point is, not responding to that can be your internet victory if that's what you need. I am not going anywhere. Keep at it. I didn't join a video game forum and expect that there really were political, economical, scientific, and financial experts. I certainly knew they all wouldn't be contained in one person. I was right about that at least.

[NecroPhile]

What, no more alternate facts and make believe paraphrasing?  The poor little troll can't debate his way out of a paper sack.

Look, lets clear the air. I would be lying if I said I wasn't flattered by your hard-on when I come around. But, as I was saying at the beginning, you aren't what I look for. I am not attracted to people who mistake a condescending attitude with strength, or strength in numbers as superiority. I am not into people who feel they solely have all knowledge and facts, and I like strong people, ones who don't need to compensate at every turn. I like people who aren't so weak, that they scream and shout how right they are about everything even after claiming otherwise. I like people with substance. You have none. Text book internet arguer, zero originality. You are a dime a dozen. I can go to any internet forum and there you are. The guy that has the supermodel wife, 10 inch ding dong, financial expertise and that guy that makes anyone who is in his presence, 100% better. You are, in your mind, the GOAT.

I don't want to be your peer or ever on your level. It is difficult to even try to have a discussion with the likes of you but you always mistake that for you "winning" at every turn.

I'll say it again: people that truly don't care about something don't proclaim over and over again that they don't care.

You actively have and use the word "chucklefuck" in your vocabulary. I don't know where to even begin with that.

That one really got to you, eh? 

My point is, not responding to that can be your internet victory if that's what you need. I am not going anywhere. Keep at it. I didn't join a video game forum and expect that there really were political, economical, scientific, and financial experts. I certainly knew they all wouldn't be contained in one person. I was right about that at least.

What exactly did you join (and stay) here for?  It obviously isn't to talk about games.

[seieienbu]

I would assume that he joined because he deleted his account in a fit of rage over some thread or other.  After realizing that he missed the lulz from posting obnoxious stuff he rejoined so he can now make personal attacks when his arguments aren't quite as well thought out with obvious brilliance as he perceived them.

[OldRover]

It seems some people don't understand the whole point of implementing the minimum wage and should look up some history.

Supply and demand. What is your point?

Please actually look it up before saying such incorrect things.

[itsatarp]

I assume, that your previous comments about your grandfather and father were made to show me I am wrong. To me that doesn't matter. I do hope, and assume you do, that you appreciate all that both did so you could become who you are. I love honorable people who can put what they want out of their minds, to do what is needed for their families. It reminds me of my own family and we should be humbled by what they achieved and never once considered giving up on us.

How can you expect (and love) honour on an individual basis and not on a corporate basis?

This took me a while to try to find an answer. I still don't see a way to connect these dots. I guess best I can do is this.

IIRC, Honda plants in N America do not have these management/employee pay gap issues. Management makes very little more than line workers and they are expected to work all of the jobs at the plant when needed. How cool is that? So it can be done and it can work. They make a good products, have very few skeletons in the closet and maintain good relationships with all employees and customers. This is what you are after I think.

I like it. It would be a nice change in the landscape of corporate America and have always felt we could be better and more productive following Japanese work ethics. Ok, except for the jumping out of a building when you fail. But, you have to be reasonable. They don't have the most scrupulous businesses there either. So maybe we can work on the management/employee gap with those ethics and then work on more accountability at the upper levels. I don't know. Glad I don't need to figure it out, because it seems it would be a very daunting task.

I find it easier to hold an individual accountable or admirable because we are all under the same set of rules in the workforce or as citizens. Corporations and government are on their own level with different rules. I can't reasonably figure a way, with my limited understanding of their set of rules or lack of, to see the 2 as even remotely the same. I can't ever imagine being proud or admirable of a company that sells me something. That has never even crossed my mind. They are as faceless to me as I am to them I guess. But, people like you had in your life, just as faceless to me, are what we were built on and left a lasting impression.

Best I could do bro.

[itsatarp]

It seems some people don't understand the whole point of implementing the minimum wage and should look up some history.

Supply and demand. What is your point?

Please actually look it up before saying such incorrect things.

It was for worker protection, much like unions. Basically it means, if I could pay you less than this and get away with it, I would, but laws prevent me from doing so. Also, a minimum standard of living, economic protection and basic neccesities. The supply and demand was tongue in cheek because that's the new argument about it. Carry on.

[itsatarp]

I would assume that he joined because he deleted his account in a fit of rage over some thread or other.  After realizing that he missed the lulz from posting obnoxious stuff he rejoined so he can now make personal attacks when his arguments aren't quite as well thought out with obvious brilliance as he perceived them.

Interesting concept. Personal attacks. Retard, chucklefuck, stupid, douche these are all descriptions of me!! I did call the internet forum cliche Rambo though. Funny you mentioned personal attacks but I saw no need to. Why is that? I have not seen the need to question anyones intelligence or ability to read because they don't agree with me. I wouldn't even think of calling someone a retard because they don't think as I do lol. But you did just confirm that it is indeed a circle jerk. Glad I am not part of it.

[itsatarp]

I'll say it again: people that truly don't care about something don't proclaim over and over again that they don't care.

Keep saying it. All I have to do is show up and in no time, you come running in, keyboard locked and loaded. I know you truly do care 

What exactly did you join (and stay) here for?  It obviously isn't to talk about games.

Boxes. I collect only the boxes for TG games. Or maybe it was because I like Bonk. Can't remember.

[OldRover]

It was for worker protection, much like unions.

Yes, to put it succinctly.

Basically it means, if I could pay you less than this and get away with it, I would, but laws prevent me from doing so.

This is how it's actually applied today.

Also, a minimum standard of living, economic protection and basic neccesities.

Sort of. The whole purpose of the minimum wage was to ensure that anyone willing to work would make enough money to live a good life. Today... that never fucking happens. Nowadays, the minimum wage is treated as pocket change for high school kids. Corporate greed has perverted its purpose.

The supply and demand was tongue in cheek because that's the new argument about it.

And since when did you use neoliberal claptraps to make an argument?

[NecroPhile]

Interesting concept. Personal attacks. Retard, chucklefuck, stupid, douche these are all descriptions of me!! I did call the internet forum cliche Rambo though. Funny you mentioned personal attacks but I saw no need to. Why is that? I have not seen the need to question anyones intelligence or ability to read because they don't agree with me. I wouldn't even think of calling someone a retard because they don't think as I do lol.

Try again.  You're not being insulted simply because you disagree; it's because you're putting words in people's mouths, intentionally obfuscating points with irrelevant tangents, double posting like a dumbfuck, and lying through your teeth (either intentionally or out of ignorance).

Keep saying it. All I have to do is show up and in no time, you come running in, keyboard locked and loaded. I know you truly do care 

Yep, I'm active in many threads and post often.  Why does this bother you so?


Trump managed to actually sound presidential with his 9/11 commemoration,  much better than his history of 9/11 comments:

- bragging about his building now being the tallest in the area
- how thousands of make believe muslims were celebrating
- extending messages of peace, even to haters and losers






Added 9/14 -

Does anybody really want to throw out good, educated and accomplished young people who have jobs, some serving in the military? Really!.....

...They have been in our country for many years through no fault of their own - brought in by parents at young age.

Yeah, it's not like you campaigned on kicking ALL of them out or anything.  Flip-flop-flippitty-flop. 

[itsatarp]

Try again.  You're not being insulted simply because you disagree; it's because you're putting words in people's mouths, intentionally obfuscating points with irrelevant tangents, double posting like a dumbfuck, and lying through your teeth (either intentionally or out of ignorance).

Try again. I haven't been insulted because I have considered the sources. Talking to anyone like that is a joke. Amongst friends, fine but when trying to make a point? Weak. Wow, you can swear. Bad. Ass. This hypocrisy is one of the reasons I jumped in this thread. I already called out 2 of them for accusing me
of doing things that you were the one doing. That would be the lying you speak of right? I thought this was fighting street, do the goal posts move here too? logical fallacies, claiming opinions as facts, stretching of truth, and close minded group think. You are guilty of every single one of those, yet wanna call out for it? LMFAO!!

Yep, I'm active in many threads and post often.  Why does this bother you so?

At what point do I even allude to it bothering me? Stretching to have a point again. It has been you that felt the need to quote me from the start. Obfuscating yes? LOL

[NecroPhile]

Try again. I haven't been insulted because I have considered the sources.

in·sult (verb) - speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse

As you can see, whether or not you were personally offended is not a factor.  Learn English and try again.

Talking to anyone like that is a joke. Amongst friends, fine but when trying to make a point? Weak. Wow, you can swear. Bad. Ass.

You realize you've tossed out plenty of insults and curses in this thread, right?  Dry your crocodile tears, bitch.

This hypocrisy is one of the reasons I jumped in this thread. I already called out 2 of them for accusing me of doing things that you were the one doing. That would be the lying you speak of right?

Nope.  I mean your use of alternate facts and intentional mischaracterization of other's comments.

I thought this was fighting street, do the goal posts move here too?

Nowhere have I said you can't lie, be insulting, or otherwise be a piece of shit troll, so you can stuff your whiny persecution act.

There are no rules against such behavior on Fighting Street, but neither is there a rule prohibiting people from calling you on the carpet for it.

logical fallacies, claiming opinions as facts, stretching of truth, and close minded group think. You are guilty of every single one of those, yet wanna call out for it? LMFAO!!

I'm not always right, of course, but unlike yourself, I don't go out of my way to post obvious lies, twist other's words, or change the subject when I've been shown wrong.

At what point do I even allude to it bothering me? Stretching to have a point again.

When someone bitches about a certain point repeatedly, it's pretty obvious that it bothers them.  Maybe you hope saying "It doesn't bother me!" enough times will make it true.

It has been you that felt the need to quote me from the start. Obfuscating yes? LOL

So quoting a specific point and directly responding to it is a bad thing and makes things less clear?  Sounds logical, bruh.

[turboswimbz]

[ClodBusted]

Trump twitters today:

"Global warming is an expensive hoax. Pro wrestling is real."

[ClodBusted]

Trump twitters today:

"Nobody talks about me anymore in this thread. SAD."