Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...

StarDust4Ever · 06/12/2016, 04:11 AM

Not trying to sound discriminatory against CDs or against people who only have systems capable of playing Hucards, as I myself collect Hucard only.

I'm going use the Genesis / Megadrive, SegaCD, and 32X as an example. Nobody refers to SegaCD or 32X carts as Genesis or Megadrive games, but each peripheral is treated as it's own system when it comes to collecting. This makes sense to me. Sega fans can collect specifically for whichever sub-system they collect for and when doing trades or sales there is no question as to which game plays on what.

Turbografx / PC Engine doesn't seem to make that distinction as much. It just gets kind of frustrating to read about games or suggestions from various folks and the need to do a Google search to determine it's a SuperCD title after I can't find the title in the No_Intro set on my Everdrive. Further compounding the issue is the packaging at first glance is largely the same, ie jewel cases, and closer inspection is needed to make a determination as to the logo for Hucard or SuperCD.

Maybe I'm just being a gripe by the medium as well as the hardware setups needed to play are very different. I'm kind of old school at heart and long ago determined that cart systems were far more reliable over disc systems. Full disclosure; I don't currently own any 90s CD consoles, although I do have a handful of PS1 games I sometimes play on PS3.

MNKyDeth · 06/12/2016, 04:28 AM

The US games library on HuCard is so small compared to what was released in Japan. Sure there are good games on the HuCards but nearly all the best were on CD. Even then the US releases were so few compared to Japan it made it almost to the point that you needed the CD-Rom to get everything you could out of this console, imo.

Once the Super System 3.0 came out games started pushing the limits of this console and then the Arcade card hit and it upped the ante even further.

My point is, limiting to HuCard only you are seeing a very very small portion of the games and the abilities of this system. I think "we" in general don't separate the HuCards from CD's so much as most people want to explore everything this console has.

This is my 2c on it.

StarDust4Ever · 06/12/2016, 04:47 AM

I'm not anti-CD by any means, but with the reliability issues with leaky caps and rotten gears, and the high resale prices of system hardware both US and even Japan, it isn't as accessible to many gamers. I cannot afford one right now. Sega CD and especially 32X had smallish libraries compared to Genesis / Megadrive so they are considerably more niche and less desirable.

Still it isn't unreasonable to argue that the base units by themselves always had a larger install base because they came out earlier. In the case of the Genesis, many gamers ignored the CD and 32X addons thus most devs continued releasing straight Genesis carts.

And the Hucard library (counting Japanese entries) is over like 300 titles or so by itself, comparable in size to the US N64 library but with less filler. So I don't believe there isn't a lot to great stuff to collect for as is. Someday I'll get either a Japanese Duo or one of those briefcase setups to complement my stock US Turbografx (don't know why but the bulky modular nature of the briefcase appeals to me), but for now I don't have the money or the space to add one to my collection.

Gypsy · 06/12/2016, 07:16 AM

Besides the systems, old cds themselves will have issues if not stored properly. I guess carts do too, but I've encountered way more non-working discs than carts. So there are definitely reliability issues. That said, the library is great. So, emulate if you have to, but there are just so many good games you miss out on by not playing CD games.

As for the topic of the op itself. I did always view Sega CD as a separate system despite the fact that you need a Genesis. Maybe it's because of the duo but I always just kind of viewed all the PCE/Turbo stuff as one library.

esteban · 06/12/2016, 08:03 AM

Quote from: StarDust4Ever on 06/12/2016, 04:11 AMNot trying to sound discriminatory against CDs or against people who only have systems capable of playing Hucards, as I myself collect Hucard only.

I'm going use the Genesis / Megadrive, SegaCD, and 32X as an example. Nobody refers to SegaCD or 32X carts as Genesis or Megadrive games, but each peripheral is treated as it's own system when it comes to collecting. This makes sense to me. Sega fans can collect specifically for whichever sub-system they collect for and when doing trades or sales there is no question as to which game plays on what.

Turbografx / PC Engine doesn't seem to make that distinction as much. It just gets kind of frustrating to read about games or suggestions from various folks and the need to do a Google search to determine it's a SuperCD title after I can't find the title in the No_Intro set on my Everdrive. Further compounding the issue is the packaging at first glance is largely the same, ie jewel cases, and closer inspection is needed to make a determination as to the logo for Hucard or SuperCD.

Comrade, all you have to do is take a MOMENT to consult a resource:

http://www.pcedaisakusen.net/2/27/list-games.htm

http://www.pcecp.com

http://www.pcengine.co.uk

http://www.videogameden.com

...and your problem is solved.

Don't worry, you have plenty of time to explore the CD-ROM library of games in the future.

There are TONS of great HuCARD games to enjoy for now.

Obviously, I am not anti-CD...but I appreciate and respect anyone who is able to give the HuCARD titles an opportunity to shine.

While it is true that IT WOULD BE A CRIME TO IGNORE THE CD GAMES (seriously), there is no need to rush into it! Especially if $$$$ is an issue.

HuCARD 4 Eva.

ADVICE: Some folks are going to harass you ("You MUST get CD naowwwwwwwwwwww!!!!") ... Ignore them. Just tell them that OF COURSE YOU WILL PLAY CD GAMES, but later.

Promise this.

Hold true to it.

And the Lourde of Thunder* will bless your game sessions.

* Available as SCD only. Sorry.

Gypsy · 06/12/2016, 08:20 AM

Some of my absolute favourites are hucards. Devil Crash, Cadash, Super Star Soldier and Final Soldier. I'm pretty sure Soldier Blade will be on that list once I play it.

rxmage · 06/12/2016, 08:40 AM

I think for a system that had such small market share, NEC did a decent job transitioning to the all in one Duo. I think the Duo helped homogenize HuCARDS and CDs into just Turbo games. Using your example of Sega, they stuck with the Frankenstein mash of parts that was the Genesis/CD/32X that each required its own power adapter and had patch cords going everywhere for too long. While NEC had their period of doing somewhat the same, I think they moved on to an all in one unit sooner. When looking at both systems today, the Duo is much more readily available than the Sega CDX or X'Eye units.

I get the finance side of being able to jump in and get a CD unit just because you want it. But, when you can, I would suggest it. As stated, great games available. Like you, I love the PCE briefcase. That was the direction I wanted to go. But, I was able to obtain a broken dock and broken CD unit for pretty much nothing. Fixed both and so, here I am. As Gypsy stated, emulation is a route to experience CD games...I don't think emulation is the sin that some categorize it into. Emulation made me decide that I wanted the original hardware.

But hell, what do I know...I haven't even had a cup of coffee yet this morning, so I am pretty much babbling on.

bob · 06/12/2016, 09:09 AM

@rx: i am actually surprised the cdx has remained somewhat affordable. you can still get one for under 200 even on the bay. for another system that had pretty small manufacturing run, i would think that thing would be closer to 500 by now. especially considering it marries the genny/CD in such a small footprint.

i paid like 250 for one with a mix of 30 carts and CDs (all loose) just over a year ago. that was an auction, but even some BINs are still pretty reasonable. of course, if you NEED that box, price is closer to 400 for some stupid reason.

rxmage · 06/12/2016, 09:23 AM

Gynt,

There have been so many times I have thought about getting a CDX. Like you said, for everything that it is, it has a nice small foot print. The only thing that has stopped me is that I hear mixed things about it having cap issues. And, from the videos I have seen, it looks like a bear to mess with. I have a model 2 Genesis/CD unit that I need to fix the CD on...need new laser. I have been holding off because the gears in it look suspect and I don't want to throw good money after bad. Might have to pull the trigger on a CDX... would free up a lot of room that that model 2 is taking up.

For $250, sounds like you got a sweet deal on that lot. The one main reason I like the SegaCD is for Popful Mail. Now, if there was an English translation for the Turbo...

bob · 06/12/2016, 09:38 AM

funny you say that about the caps. i have owned 2 cdx systems over the last 5 years and they have always worked perfect. never had an issue and i never heard of cap problems with them. but you are the second person in like 2 weeks to say that to me. i play it regularly, so maybe that helps?

rxmage · 06/12/2016, 10:04 AM

Quote from: gynt on 06/12/2016, 09:38 AMfunny you say that about the caps. i have owned 2 cdx systems over the last 5 years and they have always worked perfect. never had an issue and i never heard of cap problems with them. but you are the second person in like 2 weeks to say that to me. i play it regularly, so maybe that helps?

I don't know how accurate the purported cap issue is. I have watched GameTech US on some of the repairs he has done on the units and he made mention of it being common. Now that could be just the common repair he does on them...not necessarily a common issue with the units. Someday I will have to pull the trigger on one. But, for now, I think my next acquisition will be a Duo...if I can find one for the right price.

SignOfZeta · 06/12/2016, 10:11 AM

Basically you're crazy. The PCE was designed from the beginning to have the CD unit. CD is not some failed add-on when it comes to PCE. If you get confused about which hardware you need to run the game then...stare a little bit longer. All that info is on every game case.

HuCARDs are underrated, I %100 agree but most PCE games are Super CDs.

As for the longevity of CDs, bullshit. Nearly without exception CDs last forever. "Not stored properly" is hardly an issue. Don't leave your CDs in a non-climate controlled shed in Arizona. Don't scratch the things. Beyond that sort only abuse they last forever. Don't confuse "the abuse of slobs" with "sensitive to storage". In 23 years of playing Turbo I've encountered the same number of bad HuCARDs as I have CDs, none.

Gypsy · 06/12/2016, 10:30 AM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 06/12/2016, 10:11 AMAs for the longevity of CDs, bullshit. Nearly without exception CDs last forever. "Not stored properly" is hardly an issue. Don't leave your CDs in a non-climate controlled shed in Arizona. Don't scratch the things. Beyond that sort only abuse they last forever. Don't confuse "the abuse of slobs" with "sensitive to storage". In 23 years of playing Turbo I've encountered the same number of bad HuCARDs as I have CDs, none.

Fair point. I've never had an issue with a disc I've bought that worked when I bought it. People always seem to bitch about it, but they are likely abusing the discs. I don't think disc rot is a serious issue (outside of LDs, obviously) as I have had a bunch of old discs for a long time and none of them have shown any signs of that.

elmer · 06/12/2016, 11:03 AM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 06/12/2016, 10:11 AMThe PCE was designed from the beginning to have the CD unit. CD is not some failed add-on when it comes to PCE.

Yep, that's right. The CD was part of the PCE's initial design.

You can see how very little hardware it actually adds to the system ... just the drive and the ADPCM and some RAM, all addressed by the main PCE CPU.

Nothing on the PCE is actually "replaced" when you add the briefcase to the base PCE.

Compare that to Sega's MegaCD which was never a part of the original Genesis.

It's a horrible kludge, and is basically a totally separate console that does its own game processing on its own internal CPU/RAM/blitter and then shuts down the original Genesis CPU so that the MegaCD can DMA the resulting image to the Genesis's VDC to be displayed.

It's a "clever" solution to getting increased performance out of the awful Genesis design limitations ... but it's an ugly, ugly hack.

The same with the 32x and its nest of wires.

They're both really different machines to the original console, just sold as add-ons rather than new systems.

esteban · 06/12/2016, 11:14 AM

Quote from: Gypsy on 06/12/2016, 08:20 AMSome of my absolute favourites are hucards. Devil Crash, Cadash, Super Star Soldier and Final Soldier. I'm pretty sure Soldier Blade will be on that list once I play it.

Yes, Soldier Blade will be on the short list.

Gypsy · 06/12/2016, 11:29 AM

Quote from: esteban on 06/12/2016, 11:14 AM
Quote from: Gypsy on 06/12/2016, 08:20 AMSome of my absolute favourites are hucards. Devil Crash, Cadash, Super Star Soldier and Final Soldier. I'm pretty sure Soldier Blade will be on that list once I play it.
Yes, Soldier Blade will be on the short list.

Soon, soon.

StarDust4Ever · 06/12/2016, 06:48 PM

Quote from: Gypsy on 06/12/2016, 11:29 AM
Quote from: esteban on 06/12/2016, 11:14 AM
Quote from: Gypsy on 06/12/2016, 08:20 AMSome of my absolute favourites are hucards. Devil Crash, Cadash, Super Star Soldier and Final Soldier. I'm pretty sure Soldier Blade will be on that list once I play it.
Yes, Soldier Blade will be on the short list.

Soon, soon.

Haha, is that a Family Guy cutaway screengrab? :p

Gypsy · 06/12/2016, 08:06 PM

Quote from: StarDust4Ever on 06/12/2016, 06:48 PM
Quote from: Gypsy on 06/12/2016, 11:29 AM
Quote from: esteban on 06/12/2016, 11:14 AM
Quote from: Gypsy on 06/12/2016, 08:20 AMSome of my absolute favourites are hucards. Devil Crash, Cadash, Super Star Soldier and Final Soldier. I'm pretty sure Soldier Blade will be on that list once I play it.
Yes, Soldier Blade will be on the short list.

Soon, soon.
Haha, is that a Family Guy cutaway screengrab? :p

Yes it is.

StarDust4Ever · 06/12/2016, 09:30 PM

Quote from: esteban on 06/12/2016, 11:14 AM
Quote from: Gypsy on 06/12/2016, 08:20 AMSome of my absolute favourites are hucards. Devil Crash, Cadash, Super Star Soldier and Final Soldier. I'm pretty sure Soldier Blade will be on that list once I play it.
Yes, Soldier Blade will be on the short list.

Thanks for the tip. I just fired up Soldier Blade on my Everdrive. Beat Stage 1 boss on my first try, bit ot's got all the action that makes Blazing Lazers so great. Just picked one up off the 'Bay. Can't wait to play through it!

technozombie · 06/12/2016, 10:46 PM

For me learning about the games and what they play on is part of the joy. Digging around yahoo.jp and then looking the games up on pcengine.co.uk is both entertaining and educational.

GoldenWheels · 06/13/2016, 08:30 AM

pcengine.co.uk is damn pretty useful, even if just for weeding out all those digital comics/RPGs as you search for a new game...I actually also agree with their "buy it/try it/avoid" ratings, mostly.

NecroPhile · 06/13/2016, 10:36 AM

The reasons I always think of it as one system:

1) It was meant to have the CD from the beginning and was well supported, not some afterthought brought out years later.
2) The cd is just a storage medium, without additional cpu power, hardware scaling/rotation, etc.; even its save file and av capabilities could be added with other peripherals. Other than redbook and adpcm stuff, any game on cd could've been done on a huey.
3) Maybe it's tough for guys just starting out today, but for the longest time Duos were pretty cheap; it wasn't hard to find one for $150 or less, so why would anyone buy a base system to save less than $100? The whole reliability argument doesn't wash with me either, not when so many systems worked flawlessly for 15-20 years and gear changes, cap jobs, new blazing lazers, etc. were relatively cheap.
4) After years and years of playing the games, reading reviews, etc., I know which format most games are on. It's not something I have to think about or look up very often.
5) The most important reason is that the first system I bought was a TurboDuo. For me,format has always been a non-issue, other than knowing I couldn't play Arcade Card or Games Express games without the corresponding system cards and a region mod.

Gentlegamer · 06/13/2016, 11:38 AM

One thing I've learned in my time here and from experiencing the system is that PC Engine was truly the first CD console.

As others have pointed out, CD capability was part of its initial design, the CD-ROM adds no additional hardware capabilities, and a large portion of its library was released only on CD.

If you really want to experience PC Engine, you need to be able to play CD games. The best advice for "authentic/collectard" experience is get a Duo-R. Then use Turbo Everdrive and CD-R to bypass the collectard market on the "softs" (as classic EGM would have put it).

Outside of that, the Ootake emulator is excellent.

StarDust4Ever · 06/13/2016, 12:43 PM

I had fond memories playing Star Parodier on Wii VC. It would be awesome to play this title again without grabbing for the Wii-motes. Someday I'll get that "briefcase" setup.

How large were most CD games once you strip out the audio? I think most ripped game images have the CD audio tracks encoded as mp3 which would be no good for burning. I've also heard burned discs needed 650Mb CDR which are hard to find...

I'm also curious about one thing regarding the CD audio: if someone pulled A/V off a Coregrafx unit in a briefcase setup, would they still get the CD audio? It would be kinda fun if one could hack "quadraphonic sound" out of a briefcase setup by tapping the stereo A/V from the Coregrafx and CDDA from the headphone output.

CrackTiger · 06/13/2016, 01:53 PM

Yes, the full sound comes back out of the core consoles.

You don't need 650MB disc for PCE games since CDs weren't that big back then.

It's easy to get a feel for how big most stage-based games are by the CD format and number of loads. Most are comparable to SNES/Genesis cart games for the time when you subtract the cinemas, redbook and adpcm. If a 6 stage Super CD game doesn't load for bosses, then it's a <12 meg game. That's not taking into account all of the reused assets and code loaded each time, that wouldn't count separately in a cart game.

A good example is that Spriggan is roughly the same size as Musha.

StarDust4Ever · 06/13/2016, 04:17 PM

Quote from: guest on 06/13/2016, 01:53 PMYes, the full sound comes back out of the core consoles.

You don't need 650MB disc for PCE games since CDs weren't that big back then.

Good to know all the audio comes from the main unit. I think you misunderstood me regarding the CDs. Early CD consoles sometimes needed 650mb/74min CDRs because the lasers had trouble tracking the 702Mb/80min CDs which have grooves spaced closer together. The 650mb/74min CDRs are almost impossible to find anymore...

SignOfZeta · 06/13/2016, 04:32 PM

Yeah, but only some people care. I've had three different CD systems and they always play any CD-R I throw at them.

CrackTiger · 06/13/2016, 04:43 PM

Quote from: StarDust4Ever on 06/13/2016, 04:17 PM
Quote from: CrackTiger on 06/13/2016, 01:53 PMYes, the full sound comes back out of the core consoles.

You don't need 650MB disc for PCE games since CDs weren't that big back then.
Good to know all the audio comes from the main unit. I think you misunderstood me regarding the CDs. Early CD consoles sometimes needed 650mb/74min CDRs because the lasers had trouble tracking the 702Mb/80min CDs which have grooves spaced closer together. The 650mb/74min CDRs are almost impossible to find anymore...

There's a thread about disc theories and which brands work best. I'm pretty sure that 550MB cdrs exist, but are even harder to find.

99% of it is having a fully functional CD drive. Many people of services to tune and replace the important parts. Otherwise, having a proper disc image is pretty much mandatory.

StarDust4Ever · 06/13/2016, 04:49 PM

Never heard of 550mb discs. I know 230mb "mini" CDs exist. I used to have a stack of those I burned audio singles to I downloaded from Napster/Roxio. It was the only way I knew to remove the DRM.

wildfruit · 06/13/2016, 05:24 PM

If anyone is having trouble with cd-r and wants to try a 650mb disc I have tons of them left. Taiyo Yuden ones. I'll send one to, let's say, the first three people that want to try one. I doubt it would make a difference though as so many other more important factors to consider. Peace.

crazydean · 06/13/2016, 07:22 PM

Quote from: rxmage on 06/12/2016, 09:23 AMGynt,

There have been so many times I have thought about getting a CDX. Like you said, for everything that it is, it has a nice small foot print. The only thing that has stopped me is that I hear mixed things about it having cap issues. And, from the videos I have seen, it looks like a bear to mess with. I have a model 2 Genesis/CD unit that I need to fix the CD on...need new laser. I have been holding off because the gears in it look suspect and I don't want to throw good money after bad. Might have to pull the trigger on a CDX... would free up a lot of room that that model 2 is taking up.

For $250, sounds like you got a sweet deal on that lot. The one main reason I like the SegaCD is for Popful Mail. Now, if there was an English translation for the Turbo...

I wanted to weigh in real quick on the CDX. I use retroRGB.com a lot because I have an RGB setup, and he has a short video on the CDX audio vs Genesis 1 audio found here: http://retrorgb.com/genesisversions.html

As for CD-Rs, they run just fine on my PCE Duo. I can't tell the difference between a burned game and Mysterious Song.

SignOfZeta · 06/13/2016, 07:57 PM

I have a Genesis 1 and yes, the sound did go down hill after that. I never knew how far down the hill until I listened to the CDX clip in that video though. Fuck, it sounds like shit!

ToyMachine78 · 06/13/2016, 08:37 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 06/13/2016, 07:57 PMI have a Genesis 1 and yes, the sound did go down hill after that. I never knew how far down the hill until I listened to the CDX clip in that video though. Fuck, it sounds like shit!

Yes, I can attest. I bought a model 1 genny a couple of years ago, and the sound was horrible!

I sold it and bought a model 1 HD, and sound was night and day different.

rxmage · 06/13/2016, 08:37 PM

Christ, that is a huge difference in sound quality...maybe I don't want a CDX after all...

bob · 06/13/2016, 08:52 PM

wow. i wouldnt even think its the same game. that is crazy.

CrackTiger · 06/13/2016, 09:11 PM

There are way too many sound chip variations inside Genesis hardware and not just one kind per model. But there is a custom amp mod that makes any Genesis/Mega Drive hardware sound great.

Otherwise, you're best off with the earliest Model 1 systems that have the High Definition Graphics monicker.

StarDust4Ever · 06/14/2016, 01:07 AM

FYI, my Genesis is a VA-7 Model 1. Audio is quite "grungy" through the RF and mono AV out, but crystal clear stereo through the headphone jack set to volume 5. Not bad at all when using a 1/8" phono to RCA for sound. I'm not going out of my way to procure a "High Definition Graphics" unit when what I have is fine, so long as I ignore the multi-out and use the phono jack. People only want the "High Def" versions because they lack the "Licensed by Sega" boot screen. Which was bunk anyway because the protections quickly got defeated.

SamIAm · 06/14/2016, 07:01 AM

Either there's some issue exclusive to Sonic 3, or that guy's CDX is messed up, because the difference is normally not even close to being that pronounced.

That's just one of many you can find.

StarDust4Ever · 06/14/2016, 07:41 AM

Quote from: guest on 06/13/2016, 01:53 PMYes, the full sound comes back out of the core consoles.

I'm wondering how this is possible to get CDDA out of the CPU pins given it's unbuffered. I studied the pinout of the 69-pin connector and I noticed there is a single sound in pin between the left and right sound output. If the mixing is done inside the coregrafx for a/v output (pc engine / turbografx rf modulator is mono by design), then you would only be getting a mono mix from the CDDA with stereo sound channels from the CPU. Since the synth is mostly used for SFX rather than BGM in SuperCD titles, the audio output from the Coregrafx in a briefcase setup would be technically inferior to the audio output from the adjacent CD unit. Unless I'm missing something.

StarDust4Ever · 06/14/2016, 07:50 AM

Quote from: guest on 06/13/2016, 08:37 PM
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 06/13/2016, 07:57 PMI have a Genesis 1 and yes, the sound did go down hill after that. I never knew how far down the hill until I listened to the CDX clip in that video though. Fuck, it sounds like shit!
Yes, I can attest. I bought a model 1 genny a couple of years ago, and the sound was horrible!

I sold it and bought a model 1 HD, and sound was night and day different.

I assume you had a VA-7 revision ike mine. Did you try tapping the headphone connection for stereo? I found it to be quite acceptable at half volume (5).

CrackTiger · 06/14/2016, 11:47 AM

Someone (Chris?) discovered not too long ago that the sound quality coming out of a CoreGrafx hooked to an IFU wasn't nearly as good as the sound coming out of the IFU.

Stardust: The right HDG Genesis models are sought after because of the sound. TMSS is not nearly as big an issue. Your Genesis might sound fine on its own, just as many people with the worst sounding revisions often don't know the difference until they compare them.

Here's what the guy behind the Mega Amp had to say about the VA7:

QuoteVA7: Sega changed the sound circuit for this motherboard, and let me tell you, it stinks. Bad. It sounds like an emulator's sound quality was set to the lowest possible setting; it's flat, muffled, distorted, and worst of all, there's an annoying hissing sound in the background (static). Unless you can mod your system with a new audio amp, do yourself a favor and stay clear of this revision.

Gypsy · 06/14/2016, 02:14 PM

Yeah the VA7 is the only one I'd truly avoid. I have a 6.something currently and it's good enough. I wouldn't mind an HDG Genny, but I'm not going to pay the going rate for one.

johnnykonami · 06/14/2016, 02:46 PM

I'm not sure which Genesis I have, it's a model 2, and it was region modded (Came with my Alien Soldier years ago). I guess I'd have to open it up to find out..

ginoscope · 06/14/2016, 03:26 PM

Quote from: guest on 06/13/2016, 09:11 PMThere are way too many sound chip variations inside Genesis hardware and not just one kind per model. But there is a custom amp mod that makes any Genesis/Mega Drive hardware sound great.

Otherwise, you're best off with the earliest Model 1 systems that have the High Definition Graphics monicker.

I had two genesis 3 laying around sounding like crap. I got one of these amps that Black Tiger speaks of and wow did it improve the sound. Much better separation and some decent bass. I was honestly really shocked how much of a difference it did make.

Genesis 3 gets no love but it's pretty nice if you just want to play Genesis games and it has such a small footprint.

TurboXray · 06/14/2016, 05:59 PM

Quote from: StarDust4Ever on 06/14/2016, 07:41 AM
Quote from: guest on 06/13/2016, 01:53 PMYes, the full sound comes back out of the core consoles.
I'm wondering how this is possible to get CDDA out of the CPU pins given it's unbuffered. I studied the pinout of the 69-pin connector and I noticed there is a single sound in pin between the left and right sound output. If the mixing is done inside the coregrafx for a/v output (pc engine / turbografx rf modulator is mono by design), then you would only be getting a mono mix from the CDDA with stereo sound channels from the CPU. Since the synth is mostly used for SFX rather than BGM in SuperCD titles, the audio output from the Coregrafx in a briefcase setup would be technically inferior to the audio output from the adjacent CD unit. Unless I'm missing something.

Correct. When attaching a CD unit to a PCE console, the CDDA will be passed to the core unit as mono and mixed in. But unless you're using RF for some reason, use the audio that's coming out of the CD attachment; that will be both stereo chip from the system and stereo CDDA - all mixed together for glorious stereo out (no mono anything).

Also, about your original post - that's a very Sega centric point of view. They kept their addons as addons. The PC Engine was made for the CD unit which was in development at the time of the original console (before its release date). It's the only console in which the alternate medium (for which CDs to this system really are just that), replaced the original hucard medium complete. 1991 was the official flag ship for the new PC Engine.. Duo. No other console in gaming history has this unique story, so people outside the PCE community have a hard time adjusting whatever game manufacture centric views to that of the PCE. That would be your problem, not ours.

SignOfZeta · 06/14/2016, 06:44 PM

That's a good point. I didn't consider that there was a time when ONLY Duos were for sale, at least I'm pretty sure that by 1993 they weren't making any HuCARD-only systems. That sorta cements the theory. It would be like if the 32X was a hit and the Neptune became the only Genesis system for sale. Of course, Sega of the 90s being what they were, even if the 32X was a hit they'd figure out some excuse to continue manufacturing multiple unprofitable machines.

Btw, nobody has mentioned the HE System logo and how it's used to describe all PCE soft and hardware under the same blanket...obviously only on the JP side.

StarDust4Ever · 06/14/2016, 07:28 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 06/14/2016, 06:44 PMThat's a good point. I didn't consider that there was a time when ONLY Duos were for sale, at least I'm pretty sure that by 1993 they weren't making any HuCARD-only systems. That sorta cements the theory. It would be like if the 32X was a hit and the Neptune became the only Genesis system for sale. Of course, Sega of the 90s being what they were, even if the 32X was a hit they'd figure out some excuse to continue manufacturing multiple unprofitable machines.

Btw, nobody has mentioned the HE System logo and how it's used to describe all PCE soft and hardware under the same blanket...obviously only on the JP side.

HE on every Hucard and CDROM, just like the rectangle Turbografx logo on all the US games.

Part of the issue for me at least, is the fact that price is a significant hurdle to getting in on the Turbografx scene. On the cheap end of things, a person could have access to the entire Hucard library on real hardware for $160 or so. A Coregrafx, an Everdrive, a Genesis Model 1 or equivalent 9-10V DC negative tip barrel adapter, a hacked MIDI-to-RCA cable, and any miniDIN PCe or Duo controller.

Getting access to SuperCD games is at least twice the hardware cost and barrier to entry, possibly more. Then there's multiple regions of hardware to deal with, multiple system cards, and addons galore. Doesn't help that most competing CD systems of the time were just full of a bunch of FMV crap with 240p video that doesn't date well. That and the Atari Jaguar plus the CDROM attachment was almost as big a commercial flop as the Nintendo Virtual Boy.

I am starting to get people's points though on the hardware side of things. PCe/Turbo had a wonderfully designed expansion port with almost everything one could possibly need access to, while Sega just cludged together addons like hardware with bad tumors. I have seen the "Sega Tower" pics with a Sega CD unit at the bottom with a Genesis on top with a 32X on top with a Game Genie or Knuckles followed by a power base topped off with an SMS cart. Sega pretty much killed their own market with the addon tech, then released the Saturn followed by the Dreamcast with barely two years interim between each system.

Still there's a huge variety of hardware for PCe/Turbo, but still a Japanese Duo or Briefcase plus a Turbografx base model will let you play almost everything. Or a Supergrafx paired with a region-modded Duo will truly allow access to the complete library. I've got the db Electronics PC Henshin region converter that lets me play Japanese Hucards on my TG-16, but the cost of upgrading my Turbografx to play CDs would be astronomical. That and I still have a soft spot for cartridge based systems. Always will...

TurboXray · 06/14/2016, 07:51 PM

Quote from: StarDust4Ever on 06/14/2016, 07:28 PMStill there's a huge variety of hardware for PCe/Turbo, but still a Japanese Duo or Briefcase plus a Turbografx base model will let you play almost everything. Or a Supergrafx paired with a region-modded Duo will truly allow access to the complete library. I've got the db Electronics PC Henshin region converter that lets me play Japanese Hucards on my TG-16, but the cost of upgrading my Turbografx to play CDs would be astronomical. That and I still have a soft spot for cartridge based systems. Always will...

Get a Duo (whatever model) and be done with it. That was ALWAYS the smartest option. There might be lots different configurations, but in the end a Duo unit is the best, simplest, and cheapest route. Building a PCE+briefcase or TG+CD, or SGX+SCD (which you didn't mention), are possibilities - but they aren't the norm. For some people, it's all about flavor.

If you have PC-Engine or related Core Grafx unit, don't get a briefcase model unless you're into that look specifically (first gen CD units have their issues with CD-Rs). Get a SuperCDROM^2 addon. They have a built in system card already (3.0). They play CD-Rs all day long. And.. they cost (last I checked) less than a Duo unit. But starting out with hucards only and then upgrading to CD games later, as a gamer nowadays, is always going to cost you more in the long run. A lot of retro gamers have seemed to regret this step.

Those of us who were there when the system started out and then transitioned over to the Duo, saw first hand how CD games replaced all hucard games. It was extremely evident. And we continued to play PCE game, now CD, until the softs stop coming out. So to us old timers, it's ALL the same. Just like PC games... you got floppy disk games, CD games, etc all back in the day.. but they were all PC games. Anyway, point is - is that people who didn't experience the PCE systems BITD, don't have the experience and concept of how all this played out. The SegaCD was very popular outside of Japan (even if you didn't own it), so people looked at the TG/PCE CD games in much the same light, when they couldn't have been more different.

CrackTiger · 06/14/2016, 08:06 PM

Quote from: StarDust4Ever on 06/14/2016, 07:28 PM
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 06/14/2016, 06:44 PMThat's a good point. I didn't consider that there was a time when ONLY Duos were for sale, at least I'm pretty sure that by 1993 they weren't making any HuCARD-only systems. That sorta cements the theory. It would be like if the 32X was a hit and the Neptune became the only Genesis system for sale. Of course, Sega of the 90s being what they were, even if the 32X was a hit they'd figure out some excuse to continue manufacturing multiple unprofitable machines.

Btw, nobody has mentioned the HE System logo and how it's used to describe all PCE soft and hardware under the same blanket...obviously only on the JP side.
HE on every Hucard and CDROM, just like the rectangle Turbografx logo on all the US games.

Part of the issue for me at least, is the fact that price is a significant hurdle to getting in on the Turbografx scene. On the cheap end of things, a person could have access to the entire Hucard library on real hardware for $160 or so. A Coregrafx, an Everdrive, a Genesis Model 1 or equivalent 9-10V DC negative tip barrel adapter, a hacked MIDI-to-RCA cable, and any miniDIN PCe or Duo controller.

What old stuff costs to collectors today doesn't determine what "counts" as part of the library. Around the launch of the SNES, you could buy a new Turbo CD + new TG-16 with games for about the same price as a new SNES.

QuoteGetting access to SuperCD games is at least twice the hardware cost and barrier to entry, possibly more. Then there's multiple regions of hardware to deal with, multiple system cards, and addons galore. Doesn't help that most competing CD systems of the time were just full of a bunch of FMV crap with 240p video that doesn't date well. That and the Atari Jaguar plus the CDROM attachment was almost as big a commercial flop as the Nintendo Virtual Boy.

When they introduced the CD-ROM, before the launch of the PC Engine, and for a while after the first PCE CD games became available, there were no competing CD systems. The Sega-CD was the only competing CD system and it wasn't full of fmv games (<18%(?) of the library could be labeled "fmv", even if that's still misleading). Crap or otherwise, none of the fmv was 240p, more like 64p - 128p. The Turbo/PCE has fewer regions than competing consoles, fewer game formats than the Genesis world and you can play all of the roms on a flashcard, unlike SNES, which needs all of those different chips.

QuoteI am starting to get people's points though on the hardware side of things. PCe/Turbo had a wonderfully designed expansion port with almost everything one could possibly need access to, while Sega just cludged together addons like hardware with bad tumors. I have seen the "Sega Tower" pics with a Sega CD unit at the bottom with a Genesis on top with a 32X on top with a Game Genie or Knuckles followed by a power base topped off with an SMS cart. Sega pretty much killed their own market with the addon tech, then released the Saturn followed by the Dreamcast with barely two years interim between each system.

Still there's a huge variety of hardware for PCe/Turbo, but still a Japanese Duo or Briefcase plus a Turbografx base model will let you play almost everything. Or a Supergrafx paired with a region-modded Duo will truly allow access to the complete library. I've got the db Electronics PC Henshin region converter that lets me play Japanese Hucards on my TG-16, but the cost of upgrading my Turbografx to play CDs would be astronomical. That and I still have a soft spot for cartridge based systems. Always will...

A SuperGrafx + Duo still won't play ACDs or LD2s.

The cost of adding an overpriced collectible to another overpriced collectible is irrelevant when you can buy an all-in-one for less than one and sometimes less than the other can be sold for. Or when superior versions of each are a fraction of the price. It's like saying that it's not worth getting your 32X working, because Wondermegas cost too much.

SignOfZeta · 06/14/2016, 08:51 PM

There are a few crazy ideas here I'd like to completely shitcan, if possible.

1) the idea that CDs and cards are different SYSTEMS because CDROM2 gear is expensive is nuts. Even if there were no functional surviving CDROM2s on the planet they would still be the same systems. You're confusing narcissism with technology. The Phantom Menace is still a Star Wars movie even if it's terrible and you're a SW fan. You're just going to have to reconcile that. Deciding those things is the privilege of the creator. Not you. You could have never have been born and "PC Engine" would still decribe both cards and CDs. The universe is a cold and unforgiving place. I'm sorry for you and for all of us.

2) to my knowledge there is no known relationship between the ability to play CDRs and which CDROM2 system you have. I've played CDRs in everything from a IFU30 set to a Laseractive. There are a lot of theories flying around here about CDRs and PCEs and a lot of them are more Fox News when what we need is more like NASA. Fewer hunches and more facts are needed and the fact is that, if in good condition, any model of PCE can play CDRs. If yours doesn't that doesn't change anything, see item 1.

There was a time when I would lead people away from the early CDROM2 because they were failing middle gears like mad and many were dead for other reasons. These days they can be repaired by a number of people and spare parts are easy to get. Because of this I can't think of any reason to talk people out of briefcase units or TG-CDs (other than that the TG-16+CD is honestly really bad looking from a design perspective and way too big). You're going to need to turn some pots or recap something or at least install a new controller port in almost any PCE system, if not then the guy you bought it from probably did.

3) harder to articulate...this drive to identify the cheapest way to play the largest variety of software, talk about it constantly, and poke holes in any other ways of doing it...(i.e.: just get a flash card, just get a flash card, I have a flash card, it's awesome. Buy one. Legit copies are for dummies. Just get a flash card)...it sorta misses the point. Maybe your system can play 250 games, maybe it can play 800 games. It doesn't matter because very few people who own or who have ever owned a PCE system will beat more than like...32 games, maybe. The other 800 will remain unplayed or maybe played for 8 seconds when you're channel flipping on your PCE or an emulator. Don't worry about SuperGrafx or Arcade Card. Having %100 compatibility isn't going to make Air Zonk any more fun. If you like Sapphire a lot then by all means buy an Arcade Card, but don't buy a SGX because it can play the five games your CoreGrafx can't. There are at least 25 PCE games that are better than any SGX game. The SGX sucks. Unless you like those five games you're wasting your time and money (and space). If you like the SGX, that's cool too, but it being the right or wrong choice fiscally or because it increases your PCE compatibility should be beside the point.