PC Engine CD/TurboGrafx CD Vs Mega-CD/Sega CD - which is better?

[CrackTiger]

I just bought a US Sega-CD. I haven't had much time to play it, but the load times are way faster than my PCE Duo. Is this typical?

Just depends on the game and how much is being loaded. Sega-CD lasers are the same speed as Turbo/PCE CD-ROMs.

After being tuned up, my TurboDuo loads the 3-in-1 menus and all of Gate of Thunder about as fast as a cart game.

[SavagePencil]

I just bought a US Sega-CD. I haven't had much time to play it, but the load times are way faster than my PCE Duo. Is this typical?

I'd say that my Duo is faster at loading the initial game, but it varies between level/mode.  I spent the afternoon exploring a Mega CD I bought a decade ago ( http://segaretro.org/Game_no_Kanzume_Vol.2 ) and was upset that until last week I couldn't actually play the fucking thing.  Initial load is pretty rough, and reboot is slow, but each game itself loads up quickly.  Then again, many of these were early 90s downloadable over modem...

[Joe Redifer]

I choose both! There's more than just FMV games on the Sega CD just like there's more than just sports games on the Genesis. If that taints your memories then that's your problem.

I'm betting that if NEC could, they would have been all over the FMV bandwagon. Nowhere along the line did they say "Let's stick to good, real games because we feel that's a better use of the technology". The problem with Sega is that they had the budget, the marketing and the CPU to make lots and lots of FMV games. They took that money and made it so the FMV was eventually full screen. Of course I'm not saying those games were good, but Sega of America heavily invested in it and advertised it, thus is was. Wasn't really the case in Japan. Road Avenger is the tits, though. NEC's first FMV product on their system was also less-than-stellar. Sherlock Holmes paused every few seconds whereas the Sega CD version did not. "But Joe... the Turbo version has 512 horizontal pixels so much sharper!!!" Would you rather watch a Blu-ray where the video paused every few seconds or a DVD that plays smoothly for the entire duration? I thought so. They shouldn't have done such a high resolution. That was a dumb decision. Needless to say the genre thankfully didn't catch on like some thought it would.

Hardware-wise I appreciated that Sega added more to theirs in the terms of 133t FX and more processing power. NEC's product is basically just a TurboGrafx-16 with a CD player and an additional sound chip. This may be seen as a weakness but at the end of the day it was a strength, because that makes it harder for them to make stuff like FMV games. Magical Dinosaur Tour is truly what the system is all about though.

EDIT: Another thing I'd like to add is that Sega of Japan never really learned how to make proper games for their own system. No Japanese developer really did. It was the Europeans and Americans who got BY FAR the most out of that scaling and rotation hardware. Japan was very inept and making games for the thing. A few exceptions of course, but generally it was just lazy programming over there.

[TurboXray]

EDIT: Another thing I'd like to add is that Sega of Japan never really learned how to make proper games for their own system. No Japanese developer really did. It was the Europeans and Americans Europeans working for American companies who got BY FAR the most out of that scaling and rotation hardware. Japan was very inept and making games for the thing. A few exceptions of course, but generally it was just lazy programming over there.

Fixed for you.

 I've looked at a lot of Japanese code (well, most of it on the PCE, but others have reported the same thing on other systems like the NES, SNES, etc). Japanese greatest strength is their game design, but their worst attribute is generally inefficient or un-optimal use of hardware. You get a few exceptions, but it's not the norm. If it's there and easy to use, you'll see it in game.

[esteban]

"Sub-optimal".... Damn, that is an interesting pattern, if it is accurate.

[CrackTiger]

The PC Engine can do large windows of fmv just fine and those lazy persons of Japanese descent were the ones who proved it with Yuna and Gulliver Boy.

It just wasn't deemed worthwhile by Hudson.

[NecroPhile]

I'm betting that if NEC could, they would have been all over the FMV bandwagon. Nowhere along the line did they say "Let's stick to good, real games because we feel that's a better use of the technology".

Agreed.  If HuVideo was part of the dev kit when Super CDs came out, I'm sure we'd have seen it used in lots of games; I doubt there'd be much stuff like Sewer Shark or Make My Video, but I'm sure it would've been used a lot for cut scenes, especially in rpgs and digi-comics.

Magical Dinosaur Tour is truly what the system is all about though.

[Joe Redifer]

Personally I always liked PCE-style cutscenes vs the FMV anime cutscenes just because I like the clean colors vs the grainy colors. I like Popful Mail's intro on the Sega CD more than I like Keio Flying Squadron's for this reason. One thing that I've noticed in a lot of low-budget PCE CDs (those that usually remained in Japan) is that there was no music behind most of the dialog, they sounded like they were in a small room and the only animation would be moving lips. I prefer a little more effort than that.

PS - Is the guy behind the Batman Returns engine on Sega CD European? I forget the dude's name but would remember if I read it. I'll just call him Brian Green for now.

[spenoza]

Japanese greatest strength is their game design, but their worst attribute is generally inefficient or un-optimal use of hardware. You get a few exceptions, but it's not the norm. If it's there and easy to use, you'll see it in game.

If there's only enough budget for either more efficient/optimal code OR more polishing of the core game design, I'd opt for the latter, so I don't know that that's a problem, really, unless there was time and money for both and they simply didn't have the talent for the former.

[elmer]

PS - Is the guy behind the Batman Returns engine on Sega CD European? I forget the dude's name but would remember if I read it. I'll just call him Brian Green for now.

I assume that you're talking about the driving game, and not Andy Green's 2D side-scroller sections.

It was a guy called John O'Brien, Irish. He did a bunch of driving games back in the UK for Ocean which is how he got the gig.

Batman Returns was made by Acme Interactive/Malibu Interactive (same company, different names per-merger vs post-merger).

Bob Jacobs (of CinemaWare and TV Sports fame) founded Acme Interactive and head-hunted a bunch of guys from the UK for his new company.

[Joe Redifer]

It was a guy called John O'Brien

Yeah him. I knew there was a Brian in there somewhere/somehow. He did the best work on the system outside of Core.

[elmer]

He did the best work on the system outside of Core.

Which is another English company that Bob raided for talent, bringing most of the original founders over to California. For example ... Andy Green, who did the 2D sections on Batman Returns.

[Joe Redifer]

Those 2D sections were just awful.  However Core also did Battlecorps and Soul Star which were amazing graphically. Not-so-much BC Racers though.

[elmer]

Those 2D sections were just awful.  However Core also did Battlecorps and Soul Star which were amazing graphically. Not-so-much BC Racers though.

Hahaha ... I didn't say that he always got right UK talent, or that the devs had enough time to do a decent job!

I still prefer Rick Dangerous and Switchblade to anything Core did afterwards.

[SignOfZeta]

I'm betting that if NEC could, they would have been all over the FMV bandwagon. Nowhere along the line did they say "Let's stick to good, real games because we feel that's a better use of the technology".

Agreed.  If HuVideo was part of the dev kit when Super CDs came out, I'm sure we'd have seen it used in lots of games; I doubt there'd be much stuff like Sewer Shark or Make My Video, but I'm sure it would've been used a lot for cut scenes, especially in rpgs and digi-comics.

Magical Dinosaur Tour is truly what the system is all about though.

I believe this is true, but the fact that it was so far from reality illustrates one of my favorite things about NEC systems; there was almost no development outside of Japan. If there were then they'd being using programmers that actually get paid and were allowed to go home every day, there would have been software tool R&D, but there also might have been Dick Vitale's Awsome Baby College Hoops spread across 3 CDs with radical FMV segments and the six part series might have made so much money that it wasn't worth translating good RPGs (which barely happened anyway). It's good to have one system like this.

[CrackTiger]

Madden Duo CD Football is a $0 budget peek at that alternate reality.

[Alt-Nintega]

Is Mega CD better than Sega CD? The word MEGA sounds cooler. Is it better?

[CrackTiger]

Is Mega CD better than Sega CD? The word MEGA sounds cooler. Is it better?

It goes Japan MEGA>North American SEGA>Misc MEGA.

[Joe Redifer]

but there also might have been Dick Vitale's Awsome Baby College Hoops spread across 3 CDs with radical FMV segments

That would have been truly awesome. Then on future consoles we could have crossovers like Scottie Pippin X Dick Vitale Super Turbo EX plus Alpha Dash spread across 16 Blu-rays (4 for each quarter).

[martinine]

Late to the party:

When I was a kid I LOVED...both...

But ultimately found Sega CD more accessible. No store in my suburban/rural town carried TG16. I had to drive at least an hour to get anything (which is why I only had a few games for my Turbo). If I could convince my parents into buying a game for me, it would be tough to also get them to drive an hour to scoop a TG16 game, so I more often played Sega CD. Also the Blockbuster Video carried Genesis and SNES but no Turbo.

Now, in hindsight, and multifaceted adult opinion, I vote Turbo CD. I won't knock anything on Sega CD except that Sega should have added video out through the cd, so the Genesis could compete in the "colors on screen" market place. There are many games I love on both systems, but in overall playability, I choose Turbo. The Ys series builds a really solid foundation for me here. Snatcher on Sega CD.

Make no mistake. It's really very close for me, but I think, if we are including all PCE CD titles it's a no brainer. My copies of Kamen Rider Zo, Lunar, and Night Trap are pulling their nostalgia spades though!

Great thread. I've really enjoyed reeading what everyone thought as this is a question I often ponder.

[esteban]

WARNING: I am spamming this on the other thread, too. But the discussion really belongs here...

Ben Heck says...



...but note that he is not using using the upgraded SCD System Card...

[TurboXray]

Ben Heck is just a console modder. He doesn't know anything about actually coding or specs on these old systems (even more obvious by his comparison pic). Why do people turn to him for areas he's not an expert or even qualified in?

[CrackTiger]

Ben Heck has made some hilariously bad spec comments in the past. I think that he was foolish enough to do a comparison between SNES and Genesis and said the same stupid things SNES fanboys do about it being a hi-res sprite monster.

[Joe Redifer]

He didn't even get the Genesis speeds right. It's 7.67 or 7.68Mhz I believe, not 7.61. And the Z-80 is 3.58Mhz, not 4. To say nothing of using the bare-bones Turbo CD specs. And he forgot the backup RAM.

EDIT: He forgot the ADPCM in the Turbo and the 8-channel PCM in the Sega CD. Sure he said ASIC but that's really more for the scaling n' rotation, isn't it?

[CrackTiger]

And by the time the SNES CD-ROM was supposed to come out, the PC Engine CD had 2304KB "EXP RAM", not just 64.

[esteban]

And by the time the SNES CD-ROM was supposed to come out, the PC Engine CD had 2304KB "EXP RAM", not just 64.

Did any of the later Mega-CD versions (like the CDX and brethren) have a double-speed disc drive?

I did a preliminary search but didn't find any thing useful.

I'm not suggesting that the CDX or Wondermega or ______ represent stock hardware... I'm just curious what features were available and at what time.

[CrackTiger]

No, a faster drive would screw up the games.

[xcrement5x]

Yeah, the only Sega hardware I can think of that might have a different drive would be the LaserActive, but when the PAC is inserted I would assume drive speed is limited by the other components.

[TurboXray]

He forgot the ADPCM in the Turbo and the 8-channel PCM in the Sega CD. Sure he said ASIC but that's really more for the scaling n' rotation, isn't it?

Yeah. ASIC is just a scaler/rotation chip. The Ricoh 8 channel sound chip is its own thing.