Xbox Scorpio and PS4 Pro are these future failures?

Enternal · 09/08/2016, 02:14 AM

Looking back at hardware ideas like

The PSP Go

The Virtual Boy

And the 32x

We ask ourselves, didn't they see this wasn't going to work out? And I'm not saying these decisions were planned with failure in mind, just that maybe they were overlooking the reality of things.

Planning a future on these systems is like planning a future with a trashy girl.

You ignore a lot of the crap hoping things turn out right, but then she becomes a wreck and years later, you're like... the signs were there why did I ignore them?

The main question, will the mainstream embrace the 4k standard in the next few years. Or will it be something like DVD to Blu-Ray, a very slow transition.

In the states we skipped the VCD, and the laserdisc didn't take off. DVD's took off for many reasons. The PS2 helped that. But even Bubba Bo Johnson, could see the difference from VHS to DVD, and he didn't have to remember to worry about rewinding the videos before returning them. Likewise from a SDTV to an HDTV big upgrade in visual quality and less bulky. But Blu-ray never really exploded. Like a stray cat, it wondered in and we gave it some attention and after some time we realized we have been with this cat for like 10 years.

Now, I'm not condemning the upgraded PS4 and Xbox One. It might be what is needed. It may be like the more successful Ps3 Slim and Xbox S that found wide success during the 7th generation. I'm just looking at what it has to offer. I'm thinking not enough people will adopt a 4k system this generation to make exclusive 4k popular. Eventually they may just standardized them and drop the 1080 systems, but it will be too late because a lot of people will stick with their older models to cut out development. So why not just wait till 9th gen? Could this also be the case of, well if we don't do it our rivals will?

I just want to know what you guys think about these upcoming systems.

TR0N · 09/08/2016, 02:26 AM

Still not sold on a PS4 Pro.All i see are these upgrades fragmenting the market.Right now i don't have a 4K TV so i'm fine with a regular PS4.

Enternal · 09/08/2016, 03:07 AM

I agree, I'll use the game Destiny for example.

Destiny was made for PS3/Xbox 360/PS4 and Xbox One. And outside of how well the game was received. It was hindered because the content/gameplay had to work on all the systems, outside of just downgrading the resolution for the older systems. You had to make sure the enemy encounters and maps would provide the same experience on old systems so you couldn't use the 8th gen systems to their full potential.

Psycho Punch · 09/08/2016, 05:46 AM

The videogame companies will Destroy their own market.

Looking forward to play uncharted on steam and Mario Bros on my phone.

Johnpv · 09/08/2016, 06:33 AM

MS with it's Scorpio announcement at E3, and now Sony with the PS4 Pro are basically telling me don't buy our hardware at launch. Wait for the updated version 3 years in. I though both of these announcements were big fuck yous to the 36 million PS4 owners, and 18 million Xbox One owners out there. Though at least the Xbox One Slim and Scorpio support UHD disks. Good job Sony on not supporting the updated format you're helping push.

crazydean · 09/08/2016, 10:01 AM

I like the stray cat analogy. Although, it's difficult to say whether they will be future failures. The three systems that you mentioned, all failed for different reasons. IMO, 4k is way over-hyped. It's just not better by enough compared to 1080. I haven't met anyone who was super-stoked about buying a 4k TV. So, it will likely be the same for the new systems. I haven't seen pricing on them, but if they offer the new models along with the old models on the shelf, the PS4 pro and Xbox One Slim will not do well.

xcrement5x · 09/08/2016, 10:13 AM

PSP Go is actually pretty nice, once it is hacked. Under the original guise of a download only unit it's a failure, but as a hackable unit with bluetooth sync for DS3 controllers and component out it's pretty nice.

To be honest, the success of the Scorpio and PS4 Pro mainly depends on how well the manufacturers are able to keep devs making games that work on both units. I feel like the big push for the PS4 Pro though, is the PSVR units.

technozombie · 09/08/2016, 10:26 AM

Modern consoles are just PC gaming for the masses. With off the shelf hardware backwards compatibility will always exist. If you bought a graphics card 3 or 4 years ago you would not complain about a new one coming out. This is literally the same thing.

NecroPhile · 09/08/2016, 10:58 AM

If you want to use history as proof that hardware upgrades are doomed to fail, don't look at just a handful of unpopular systems and ignore the ones that succeeded (PCE CD, Sega CD, New 3DS, etc.). Comparing the PS4 Pro and Scorpio to the PSP Go, Virtual Boy, and 32x is illogical anyway. The PSP Go wasn't an upgrade, just a different form factor (like a GBA Micro) that was never intended to replace the umd systems; the Virtual Boy was a completely different system, having nothing to do with the GB, SNES, or N64 and not intended as their replacement; the 32x was a hardware upgrade, so this comparison makes a least a little sense, with the main difference being that the 32x had to compete against the concurrently released Saturn while the PS4 Pro / Scorpio have no similar competition within their own brands.

I don't see these 'premium' versions as being big sellers, nor do I expect any real market fragmentation. PC games work just fine on widely different hardware specs, running with different resolutions, aa, lighting effects, etc., so why can't it work on consoles that're are essentially just PCs running specialized OSes?

Quote from: Johnpv on 09/08/2016, 06:33 AMMS with it's Scorpio announcement at E3, and now Sony with the PS4 Pro are basically telling me don't buy our hardware at launch. Wait for the updated version 3 years in. I though both of these announcements were big fuck yous to the 36 million PS4 owners, and 18 million Xbox One owners out there.

The only reason to be mad about a better version being released is if the old one quits working and no new games are made for it, which ain't likely. Launch systems still have the same capabilities that they did on day one, and if that's not good enough, you never should have bought one in the first place.

Gentlegamer · 09/08/2016, 11:16 AM

Unless 60fps become standard for the upgraded console specs, I'll pass.

Gredler · 09/08/2016, 11:43 AM

There is currently jack shit for 4k TV owners to buy and experience on their TV. It's basically just streaming video now. This move is simply filling a hole in the market, people want to play 4k/HDR games and this will give them that option. It's certainly not for everyone, but I know quite a few people who are frustrated that they can't play anything in 4k and are excited for these upgraded models.

sirhcman · 09/08/2016, 04:07 PM

I don't know.. I quite like the 32x and Virtual Boy!

ginoscope · 09/08/2016, 05:08 PM

So I finally replaced my 2008 LCD with a 55" Sony 4k TV earlier this year and guess what it does not have HDR. So having HDR is a niche within the 4k niche. Just not sure who these consoles are really catering towards.

It's even less appealing knowing the PS4 pro will not output 4k nativity and will just upscale. I have honestly not played my ps4 enough these past 3 years to justify upgrading.

Back to playing my retro games....

sirhcman · 09/08/2016, 08:46 PM

Quote from: ginoscope on 09/08/2016, 05:08 PMSo I finally replaced my 2008 LCD with a 55" Sony 4k TV earlier this year and guess what it does not have HDR. So having HDR is a niche within the 4k niche. Just not sure who these consoles are really catering towards.

It's even less appealing knowing the PS4 pro will not output 4k nativity and will just upscale. I have honestly not played my ps4 enough these past 3 years to justify upgrading.

Back to playing my retro games....

From what I've read it sounds like HDR is a bigger upgrade than 4K resolution

Gredler · 09/08/2016, 09:59 PM

HDR and 4k are unrelated.

The easiest way to explain it is HDR = more colors (higher range of colors), and 4k = higher resolution images.

There will be 1k/HD tvs that are HDR, and 4k TVs that are not HDR.

HDR is not platform specific, and all current platforms will soon support it.

sirhcman · 09/08/2016, 10:00 PM

Quote from: Gredler on 09/08/2016, 09:59 PMHDR and 4k are unrelated.

The easiest way to explain it is HDR = more colors (higher range of colors), and 4k = higher resolution images.

There will be 1k/HD tvs that are HDR, and 4k TVs that are not HDR.

HDR is not platform specific, and all current platforms will soon support it.

Oh I know that gredler I was just saying it seems like the critics believe hdr is a much bigger leap forward in television technology than higher resolutions at this point.

Gredler · 09/08/2016, 10:06 PM

Quote from: guest on 09/08/2016, 10:00 PMOh I know that gredler I was just saying it seems like the critics believe hdr is a much bigger leap forward in television technology than higher resolutions at this point.

Yeah, it is for sure

Digi.k · 09/08/2016, 10:48 PM

Quote from: Enternal on 09/08/2016, 02:14 AMThe main question, will the mainstream embrace the 4k standard in the next few years. Or will it be something like DVD to Blu-Ray, a very slow transition.

well for now.

I'm going to play a wait a see approach with the scorpio. right now I'm more interested in portable gaming so the NX might be right up my street.

DeshDildo · 09/09/2016, 09:30 AM

I actually just went through a decision making process on this subject. Out of the current gen stuff (I haven't purchased one yet) I was really leaning towards PS4. I even almost grabbed one when I found a wholesaler online selling them new for $280 shipped. My only sadness was that I would miss out on Forza as it's probably the one Xbox exclusive I would miss. Then I'm also thinking, geez should I just wait for the new versions to come out? All while considering a new console, I had been considering a new computer for video editing etc. Then it hit me. F consoles! I'm just going to buy a nice powerful computer that will handle games at least for the next few years. I can use Xbox 360 controllers I already own and hook it up to my TV. Plus I can upgrade down the line for pennies on the dollar compared to buying another console or updated one. Pair this with the fact Microsoft wants to start simultaneously releasing games for XboxOne and Windows. The decision became clear, I bought a computer.

Gentlegamer · 09/09/2016, 09:48 AM

Quote from: Desh on 09/09/2016, 09:30 AMThen it hit me. F consoles! I'm just going to buy a nice powerful computer that will handle games at least for the next few years.

This is really the correct answer at this point in time. Just make sure you don't get a Windows Botnet Edition machine.

technozombie · 09/09/2016, 11:02 AM

Quote from: Gentlegamer on 09/09/2016, 09:48 AM
Quote from: Desh on 09/09/2016, 09:30 AMThen it hit me. F consoles! I'm just going to buy a nice powerful computer that will handle games at least for the next few years.
This is really the correct answer at this point in time. Just make sure you don't get a Windows Botnet Edition machine.

Dat DX12 dough........

SignOfZeta · 09/09/2016, 08:55 PM

Fuck, I hate this post. This obsession with "failures". WTF is a failure? LD? LD was *the* premium video format for 20 fucking years. Is that not good enough? Sure the sales weren't amazing, but that's because it was a premium format. Most people don't buy premium anything. Now there are no premium formats and soon there won't be any formats at all. Therefore, none of these "failures" you hate so much. Just...iPhones and things that look exactly like iPhones. Paradise, right? No more risk.

As NecroPhile says, many of these "failures" flopped for completely different reasons and without understanding the context it's a meaningless distinction.

I wonder how far into the future people will cite the 32X as some sort of illustrative lesson. It's already more than 20 years old. When I'm buying my holochamber 64 in 40 years will some wiki-smart guy say, "Dude, remember the 32X? This is just like this. It will fail".

I'm sure at least one guy who blew $700 on a 3DO died in a car crash or something the next week. He never lived long enough to see the thing flop out, it was the hottest shit on the planet for what ended up being the rest of his life. Is his enjoyment negated because of the 3DO's massive failure?

I don't even know what these new systems are, I just think the question is played out and pointless. What's fun is fun. This is a fucking PC Engine forum after all. You'd think anyone who would bother with joining wouldn't ask such a question.

Also, I find your comedic portrayal of drug addition to be distasteful.

BlueBMW · 09/09/2016, 11:13 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 09/09/2016, 08:55 PMWhat's fun is fun.

This. Which is why I still say the Wii U was the best (ie: most fun) console of the most recent generation.

technozombie · 09/10/2016, 12:13 PM

Quote from: BlueBMW on 09/09/2016, 11:13 PM
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 09/09/2016, 08:55 PMWhat's fun is fun.
This. Which is why I still say the Wii U was the best (ie: most fun) console of the most recent generation.

My family and I got a Wii U at launch and we've played it more than any console in a long time. My daughter in particular regularly goes back to play Super Mario 3D World.

SignOfZeta · 09/10/2016, 05:11 PM

Quote from: BlueBMW on 09/09/2016, 11:13 PM
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 09/09/2016, 08:55 PMWhat's fun is fun.
This. Which is why I still say the Wii U was the best (ie: most fun) console of the most recent generation.

Unquestionably. Its a dumb design and a relative mega-flop, and even though I only have like 7 games I've played the hell out of most of them, co-op. Cleared multiple Mario titles multiple times with multiple people. MULTI! Its like the 90s up in here. I'm grateful for every year Nintendo manages to continue the real fight without selling out to The Man. It'll happen eventually, so savor every game they make.

"The Man" is the 38 year old overly entitled child who has so much buying power that all games converge on his demographic. GTA, Gears of War, Madden, that shit.

esteban · 09/11/2016, 09:03 AM

Zeta, it's been too long.

TheClash603 · 09/11/2016, 01:47 PM

I pre-ordered PS Pro, as I am a 3D junky and it is rumored this will help the PS VR. I also have a 4k tv, so it will be nice to finally see it in 4k. I acknowledge I am a niche in that I am getting both PS VR and have 4k, but I am happy Sony is supporting me.

xcrement5x · 09/12/2016, 12:52 PM

The lack of 4K player now is causing me to rethink my enthusiasm. Hopefully someone with a nicely treated complete PS4 will sell it to me cheap now

NecroPhile · 09/12/2016, 01:06 PM

I don't get why they're leaving out 4K BR movie playback in at least the Pro, not when the One S has it; it obviously isn't a pricey feature to include. Physical sales are steadily losing ground to streaming, sure, but it's still a sizable percentage of revenue (~40%).

xcrement5x · 09/12/2016, 02:32 PM

Quote from: NecroPhile on 09/12/2016, 01:06 PMI don't get why they're leaving out 4K BR movie playback in at least the Pro, not when the One S has it; it obviously isn't a pricey feature to include. Physical sales are steadily losing ground to streaming, sure, but it's still a sizable percentage of revenue (~40%).

Yeah, someone said it'll cost like MS $15 to include the drive any they're still doing it, where with Sony since they own the tech it'd probably only cost the around $5 a unit to include the drive. If anything it makes me think they'll sell another "upgrade" in another couple years again as well.

SignOfZeta · 09/12/2016, 08:58 PM

MS doesn't care about profit. Sony has bills to pay.

I agree though, as useless as 4K home video is it does seem like a strange choice to leave it out.

Gypsy · 09/13/2016, 08:22 AM

Quote from: esteban on 09/11/2016, 09:03 AMZeta, it's been too long.

Missed these before and damn they are just great. Like he said games are supposed to be fun, that's what matters and I had a good chuckle at the "The Man" comment even if it is depressingly true (and even if I did finish/somewhat enjoy GTA clone RDR). A lot of games are blurring together these days.

Enternal · 09/14/2016, 04:28 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 09/09/2016, 08:55 PMFuck, I hate this post. This obsession with "failures". WTF is a failure? LD? LD was *the* premium video format for 20 fucking years. Is that not good enough? Sure the sales weren't amazing, but that's because it was a premium format. Most people don't buy premium anything. Now there are no premium formats and soon there won't be any formats at all. Therefore, none of these "failures" you hate so much. Just...iPhones and things that look exactly like iPhones. Paradise, right? No more risk.

As NecroPhile says, many of these "failures" flopped for completely different reasons and without understanding the context it's a meaningless distinction.

I wonder how far into the future people will cite the 32X as some sort of illustrative lesson. It's already more than 20 years old. When I'm buying my holochamber 64 in 40 years will some wiki-smart guy say, "Dude, remember the 32X? This is just like this. It will fail".

I'm sure at least one guy who blew $700 on a 3DO died in a car crash or something the next week. He never lived long enough to see the thing flop out, it was the hottest shit on the planet for what ended up being the rest of his life. Is his enjoyment negated because of the 3DO's massive failure?

I don't even know what these new systems are, I just think the question is played out and pointless. What's fun is fun. This is a fucking PC Engine forum after all. You'd think anyone who would bother with joining wouldn't ask such a question.

Also, I find your comedic portrayal of drug addition to be distasteful.

I had a Virtual boy back in the day, and bought one again. I traded my first for a TV so I could have two TV's in my room and be the cool two TV kid. I have and enjoy the 32x as well. My point in bringing them up along with the Go, as they are commonly seen as failures, despite what or why exactly they failed. They failed because of bad ideas/planning.

I could have brought up this topic years ago, and said. "Wii-U, I'm not exactly on board with this name or the design, I think the general public is going to be confused, what are your guys thoughts?"

For these console upgrades I'm just asking about other people's thoughts because having a major hardware upgrade in the middle of a console cycle is not something I'm used to and I'm tried and successfully created a discussion. Are you really grumpy about this, or are you just trolling?

SignOfZeta · 09/14/2016, 09:25 PM

If you actually read my post and the sympathetic replies then I can't see how "trolling" would come to mind. I really meant what I said. I'm not acting up for attention or to piss you off. I really think the "fear of failures" is directly responsible for the lack of diversity in consumer electronics. Apparently I'm just speaking a language you don't understand. The 32X was a fucking terrible idea and without question a "failure", but mostly in the minds of people like me who were too smart to buy one. The people who did presumably had fun with it.

The TG-16 and the Duo in particular were much bigger failures than the 32X from the perspective of US sales. That's partially why I find it odd you bring this up here.

esadajr · 09/15/2016, 01:16 PM

The industry is stagnated, plain and simple. Now, can we go back and play Cheena Warrior?

esteban · 09/15/2016, 03:38 PM

Quote from: esadajr on 09/15/2016, 01:16 PMThe industry is stagnated, plain and simple. Now, can we go back and play Cheena Warrior?

Listen to this man, peoples.

wildfruit · 09/15/2016, 05:41 PM

Quote from: esteban on 09/15/2016, 03:38 PM
Quote from: esadajr on 09/15/2016, 01:16 PMThe industry is stagnated, plain and simple. Now, can we go back and play Cheena Warrior?
Listen to this man, peoples.

God no

Enternal · 09/16/2016, 06:36 AM

(If you actually read my post and the sympathetic replies then I can't see how "trolling" would come to mind. I really meant what I said. I'm not acting up for attention or to piss you off. I really think the "fear of failures" is directly responsible for the lack of diversity in consumer electronics.) <- This is good and I totally agree, we see the same thing in other forms of entertainment.

(Apparently I'm just speaking a language you don't understand.) <- Come on really? Its ok we can kiss and make up and have a TG-16 slumber party.

(The TG-16 and the Duo in particular were much bigger failures than the 32X from the perspective of US sales. That's partially why I find it odd you bring this up here.)

What separates the TG-16 and similarly the Sega Master system to me from the 32x and the other mentioned failures was that they still found success elsewhere. They're also both systems that I don't recall being widely criticized for their hardware plans. There are minor things I'm sure people were not happy about like shelling out for a turbo tap or having the pause button on the SMS.

I guess well see how everything worked out when the 9th generation of consoles start, unless it starts with the NX

technozombie · 09/17/2016, 11:17 AM

I honestly don't think the 32x was a horrible idea, just a terribly,terribly executed one. If it had released along side a "Neptune," and Sega never created the Saturn thereby, putting their full development resources behide it, it would have been great.

SignOfZeta · 09/17/2016, 12:41 PM

Quote from: technozombie on 09/17/2016, 11:17 AMI honestly don't think the 32x was a horrible idea, just a terribly,terribly executed one. If it had released along side a "Neptune," and Sega never created the Saturn thereby, putting their full development resources behide it, it would have been great.

It boggles the mind, how that could ever be considered a good idea. If the only way to make the 32X work was to kill the Saturn then obviously the 32X *was* a bad idea. I'd never trade the Saturn for the 32X.

I'd argue it was a terrible idea at the core since the "idea" in this case was that SoA would do its own game system. They thought that because of a temporary sales anomaly that they were as significant as SoJ. That's a pretty dumb idea right there.

technozombie · 09/17/2016, 12:56 PM

In this hypothetical scenario the Saturn wouldn't have existed and therefore, could not be missed.

The idea I'm referring to was that of a 32bit addon, not SoA developing it's own 32bit system and SoJ doing its own. That was obviously a bad idea.

To clarify, if Sega had released the 32x and the Sega-Trio(Gen,Cd,32X in one) then put all of its software development and marketing skills behind it, it would have been a great "mid-gen" system much like the PCE bridged the gap between the 8bit and 16bit era.

xcrement5x · 09/19/2016, 12:48 PM

Quote from: technozombie on 09/17/2016, 12:56 PMIn this hypothetical scenario the Saturn wouldn't have existed and therefore, could not be missed.

The idea I'm referring to was that of a 32bit addon, not SoA developing it's own 32bit system and SoJ doing its own. That was obviously a bad idea.

To clarify, if Sega had released the 32x and the Sega-Trio(Gen,Cd,32X in one) then put all of its software development and marketing skills behind it, it would have been a great "mid-gen" system much like the PCE bridged the gap between the 8bit and 16bit era.

Maybe, but the easiest path would have been for Sega not to make the 32X at all, continue making SVP type carts with cheater chips if they wanted something spectacular (DKC killer or the like) and keep milking the Genesis longer instead of giving it to Majesco. Honestly, they had the Genesis in so many homes they could have put out games on it for longer and at least had more revenue while the Saturn was picking up steam.

Gredler · 09/19/2016, 01:18 PM

That's a great point xele, the 32x killed the swan song of the genesis, with developer and marketing budgets spread throughout 4 genesis platforms instead of focusing cart vs disc releases which was already a shaky proposition. 32x is nothing but a blatent mistake reminiscent of the 5200 to me. The wrong device at the wrong time. I do not think that it is an apt comparison, 32x/5200 is to their generations as scorpio/ps4pro will be to this. There is a small but big spending group of players who have 4k/hdr tvs and want a 4k/hdr device to play their games at the maximum resolution possible for them, and they're willing to pay for it. I believe that is what this push is about for microsonyft: they believe this will not affect them in any negative PR sense, and the people who are willing and wanting to pay for a "premium" experience are waiting with money in hand to do so.

SignOfZeta · 09/19/2016, 01:18 PM

And where was the software supposed to come from?

The Saturn was the best system Sega made. I wouldn't trade it for anything. Leaving that aside, this scenario almost certainly would have left Sega completely SOL (instead of mostly SOL) when the PS was eventually released.