Huzak - Yet another music driver

[elmer]

As I've said earlier, I've been converting my old music/effects driver over to the PC Engine.

Here's a PCE ROM with the first (reasonable) test result ...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hu4vcerct79m1v7/huzak-navyseals-test1.pce?dl=0

The test song is from the Gameboy, so it's only 3-channel + drums ... and I didn't want to try to convert the old drum data over, so I just dropped the drum track and then doubled and detuned the other tracks to make everything else a bit more interesting.

The composition is limited by the square-wave channels and envelopes on the GB, but I'm pretty happy with the results as a 1st-test for the driver before enhancing it and getting into converting a tune that's specifically-designed for the PCE.

Programming-wise ... the driver is smaller than 2KB, and currently takes approx 5% CPU-time, and that's when changing the waveforms of all 6 channels in the same frame.

BTW ... I know that some folks don't appreciate quite so much arpeggio ... but tough, I love this track, and thought that Matty Cannon did a great job on the game music! 

[TurboXray]

Haha cool! Sometimes I hate the arpeggios.. sometimes I love the arpeggios. Sounds pretty decent here (in other words, it doesn't sound like Impossamole!). Love the name

[Michirin9801]

It's good to be able to listen to some custom-made music on the PC engine on an emulator for once... Pretty good! Not a big fan of arpeggios though, but these are not bad really... Keep it up! ^^

[SmokeMonster]

I just listened to it and it sounds great. Well done Elmer.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Hurray for new driver.

Gross for omfgwhyaretheresomanyarps.

Don't take this the wrong way, lol, it's just, the absence of that stuff is one of the reasons I love the PC Engine so much.

I don't have to hear arpaprarparpaprapraprpararparpaprapraprparparparaprparparpaprparpprparpaprp constantly.

I'd like to hear this song done in a more PCE style setup instead of the SID esque warbleystuff.

That stuff was originally put in due to the absence of enough channels to make chords.   We don't have to worry about that anymore.   

arps are always hit or miss.   There's not a middle ground.   Follin did OK with them usually.  Some other dudes needed to hit the nope button and just do some other effect instead, lol.

They're definitely a European thing.  You never hear them in Japanese game soundtracks really.   I can't recall any.

It's good to be able to listen to some custom-made music on the PC engine on an emulator for once... Pretty good! Not a big fan of arpeggios though, but these are not bad really... Keep it up! ^^

You can do that with Insanity and Atlantean, and the demo stuff in Squirrel.   



Maybe I should release an Atlantean Sound Test ROM....

hmm.

[Michirin9801]

It's good to be able to listen to some custom-made music on the PC engine on an emulator for once... Pretty good! Not a big fan of arpeggios though, but these are not bad really... Keep it up! ^^

You can do that with Insanity and Atlantean, and the demo stuff in Squirrel.   



Maybe I should release an Atlantean Sound Test ROM....

hmm.

Do you sell Atlantean as just a ROM or is it physical only?
Because you know, parallax scrolling on the PC engine (or any system with just one BG layer) makes me orgasm, and that game has a lot of it, but sadly I don't have a real PCE to play it on due to my general lack of disposable income...

[Arkhan Asylum]

It's good to be able to listen to some custom-made music on the PC engine on an emulator for once... Pretty good! Not a big fan of arpeggios though, but these are not bad really... Keep it up! ^^

You can do that with Insanity and Atlantean, and the demo stuff in Squirrel.   



Maybe I should release an Atlantean Sound Test ROM....

hmm.

Do you sell Atlantean as just a ROM or is it physical only?
Because you know, parallax scrolling on the PC engine (or any system with just one BG layer) makes me orgasm, and that game has a lot of it, but sadly I don't have a real PCE to play it on due to my general lack of disposable income...

I sell the ROM for 10$ and if you ever go to buy a real copy, I just subtract 10$ from that.   

There's also Santatlantean, which is free, and completely retarded.

http://www.aetherbyte.com/

and Reflectron!

[elmer]

Love the name

"husic" was already taken, and as the old saying goes ... "if it's not music, it's musak!". 

Haha cool! Sometimes I hate the arpeggios.. sometimes I love the arpeggios. Sounds pretty decent here (in other words, it doesn't sound like Impossamole!).

It's good to be able to listen to some custom-made music on the PC engine on an emulator for once... Pretty good! Not a big fan of arpeggios though, but these are not bad really... Keep it up! ^^

I just listened to it and it sounds great. Well done Elmer.

Thanks, guys. Remember ... it's not my music data, I'm just the code-monkey that wrote the driver.

It's the musician that makes these things sound good ... and I have no idea at all, how-on-earth they do it! 

Gross for omfgwhyaretheresomanyarps.

Don't take this the wrong way, lol, it's just, the absence of that stuff is one of the reasons I love the PC Engine so much.

I don't have to hear arpaprarparpaprapraprpararparpaprapraprparparparaprparparpaprparpprparpaprp constantly.

Well, some of us are ancient enough to have grown up listening to things like this ...

... and to remember both decimalization, and Britain entering the "Common Market" (way before the EU).

Oh ... and prog-rock and all of those other things that influenced the generation of English computer-game musicians that you have fond memories for.

And, "yes" ... it's rather out-of-place here on the PCE.

But darn, I still love that track! 

Again, it's just a proof-of-concept that the driver is basically working, and that song is my favorite among the ones that I have the source-data for.

Michirin9801's "Misty Blue" cover is the one that I really want to get working in order to read from deflemask files, and to add whatever enhancements are practically-needed to the driver.

Don't worry ... I suspect that nobody will ever use the arp-table capability again! 

I'd like to hear this song done in a more PCE style setup instead of the SID esque warbleystuff.

Me, too.

I'm not a musician, and I know that I've messed-up the sound balance with my crappy gameboy-emulation volume envelopes, and lack of decent waveforms, and terrible doubling-of-the-channels, etc.

It could be done so much better if someone wanted to.

I just suspect that nobody would be interested-enough to try. 

[Arkhan Asylum]

I hope nobody really uses those kinds of arps, because to me they insult real arpeggiator usage (Baba O'Reilly)

or from more modern times, Hungry like the Wolf.     There, it's not to simulate chords in the presence of 3 channels.   It's there to be like "goddamn that's cool and fits the damn song".   

We sit and make fun of them in MSX land...and then people turn around and overuse them there too, lol.

It plays into the MSX vs. C64 warfare.  It's comical.   I've cracked up while driving, because shipping containers here are from some company called ARP.   

It's rare to find a track that uses them well, honestly.

https://youtu.be/y3oKFxKQY_Y

This is one of the only ones I can think of that does something good with them.  They used them as upstroke sounding chords, and then a reasonably not-over-powering background noise.

Last Ninja did OK too.

I made a song that used them once just to see about them on PCE.

https://youtu.be/-0bfhixkIvg?t=91

It's in this goofy PSA I made like 5 years ago to show that you don't need CDs anymore.  lol.

I still find bits of that CD on the floor in the corner or something from time to time.

[Michirin9801]

Michirin9801's "Misty Blue" cover is the one that I really want to get working in order to read from deflemask files, and to add whatever enhancements are practically-needed to the driver.

Oh gosh, hearing that one in a proper rom would make me so happy!
(even happier if you can emulate this look)



Some people love the chunky pixels and drab palette of the C64, what I love is the tall pixels and vibrant (if few) colours of the NEC PCs, and while the resolution might be a little off, I think you can do it with the 512 pixel mode on the PCE... Not saying you have to do it, but... Just a little suggestion ;3
You did an Amstrad CPC prompt for the Game Boy song after all...

I'd like to hear this song done in a more PCE style setup instead of the SID esque warbleystuff.

Me, too.

I'm not a musician, and I know that I've messed-up the sound balance with my crappy gameboy-emulation volume envelopes, and lack of decent waveforms, and terrible doubling-of-the-channels, etc.

It could be done so much better if someone wanted to.

I just suspect that nobody would be interested-enough to try. 

Well, I could TRY to do it, but I can't guarantee I'll actually finish it >w>
But hey, there's no harm in trying right?

It's rare to find a track that uses them well, honestly.

This is one of the only ones I can think of that does something good with them.  They used them as upstroke sounding chords, and then a reasonably not-over-powering background noise.

Last Ninja did OK too.

Bomberman '93!

What's good about this song is that it uses arps sparingly, and in this case I think that they actually enhance the song and I couldn't possibly imagine it with proper chords when these arps are that good!
But yeah, it really is rare to find good arps...

[Arkhan Asylum]

Thank you for also stating that the C64 palette is drab.

It's hideous.   It rarely looks OK.   I can't comprehend people that try to honestly defend it as being beautiful.

Which arps do you mean in that BM93 song?  The "wurbleWarb!" noise between the verse/chorus?   Or do you mean the webrwerbwebrwerbwerbwerb noise that's going on in the verse?

Those arps are good either way because they aren't overpowering.

I go more for the MSX and it's overall lack of arps.

https://youtu.be/sFBaG64iokI

Microcabin did something majestic with FM + PSG that nobody has ever duplicated, and probably never will.

[Michirin9801]

Thank you for also stating that the C64 palette is drab.

It's hideous.   It rarely looks OK.   I can't comprehend people that try to honestly defend it as being beautiful.

I tried making some pixel art with the C64 palette to go with my first C64 cover, but I gave up because I just couldn't get it to look any good... Now don't get me wrong, some people can do beautiful works with the C64 palette, but I'm not one of them, I like vibrant and vivid colours!

Which arps do you mean in that BM93 song?  The "wurbleWarb!" noise between the verse/chorus?   Or do you mean the webrwerbwebrwerbwerbwerb noise that's going on in the verse?

Those arps are good either way because they aren't overpowering.

I mean both! They're both good and not overused!
The "webrwebrwebrwebr" noise that goes in the verse is just quiet enough that you have to be paying attention to even notice it, and the "wurbleWarb" just has a perfect wavetable to go with it so it sounds amazing~

I go more for the MSX and it's overall lack of arps.

Microcabin did something majestic with FM + PSG that nobody has ever duplicated, and probably never will.

Having an FM chip to go with it already goes a long way, the C64 is stuck with the SID, and as good as the SID can sound, 3 channels only is just WAY too limiting...
But if I'm not mistaken the MSX FM expansion chip is 2OP isn't it? Personally I feel 2OP FM is a little weak... It's good, and when used right it can sound amazing, but when it comes to FM I go for PC-88/98 and X68000 all the way...

^and here's why (or at least a couple of the possibly thousands of examples)

Heck, using PMD and making PC-98 music is probably my biggest incentive to dabble into MML, even bigger than PC engine itself! (It also helps that HVR exports instruments to the PMD format)
All that said though, I still think the PCE sounds better than all of that >w>
(And that the Super Nintendo sounds better than real life xD)

[Arkhan Asylum]

Its opl2, but paired with the psg, sounds great.  You can also add konami scc in and have an overload of sound.

Its great.

[touko]

Cool a new driver  .
Excellent job,and how about the music size ??

[ccovell]

A cool sound driver!  The Navy Seals soundtrack is also really good; the Amiga title screen song being one of the best.

They're definitely a European thing.  You never hear them in Japanese game soundtracks really.   I can't recall any.

Magical Chase rather famously and gloriously has arpeggios in a few tracks.  Listen and enjoy!

[Arkhan Asylum]

Im not really a fan of magical chase in general lol.

But, it doesnt do that overblown arp onslaught, and i think thats probably the reason they arent annoying.

[ccovell]

Different strokes for different folks.  But anyway, I think the PCE is not so well suited for arpeggios as it is detuned pairs of channels.  Games that do that usually sound fantastic.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Different strokes for different folks.  But anyway, I think the PCE is not so well suited for arpeggios as it is detuned pairs of channels.  Games that do that usually sound fantastic.

agreed.  I think the C64 really did well with arps because of the filtering.   Other machines that lack that ability never really sound as good.

I can recreate that stuff on my Roland pretty easily since it has a filter built in. 

[TurboXray]

Phasing + slides(and portamento to note) + sharp waveforms (saw) + vibrato = synthy sounding goodness on PCE. A.K.A. Legend of Xanadu I and Aldynes Stage 4 OST.

 Yeah.. when arps done wrong = shrill.

 elmer: is this what you mean by prog-rock?

[TailChao]

Nice work so far, good to see more sound tools.

Different strokes for different folks.  But anyway, I think the PCE is not so well suited for arpeggios as it is detuned pairs of channels.  Games that do that usually sound fantastic.

Totally, and it has the channel count to pull this off well.

Oh ... and prog-rock and all of those other things that influenced the generation of English computer-game musicians that you have fond memories for.

Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends

[DildoKKKobold]

I had to google arpeggio, and I'm still confused. If its just notes of a chord played in succession, how does that relate to a music driver? Don't you tell the music driver what to play? Couldn't it be any note?

Anyway, is this music driver something that will integrate with HuC, like Squirrel?

[spenoza]

RIP Emerson and Lake. Only Palmer remains.

Also, heresy! Magical Chase is a Sakimoto classic!

[Michirin9801]

RIP Emerson and Lake. Only Palmer remains.

Also, heresy! Magical Chase is a Sakimoto classic!

Agreed! Magical Chase has one of my favourite soundtracks on the system, it literally does magic with the soundchip! (And with the grafx too, Dat Parallax Tho! 3 overlapping layers anyone?)
Although my favourite tracks are the ones without Arpeggios >w>

[elmer]

I hope nobody really uses those kinds of arps, because to me they insult real arpeggiator usage (Baba O'Reilly)

or from more modern times, Hungry like the Wolf.     There, it's not to simulate chords in the presence of 3 channels.   It's there to be like "goddamn that's cool and fits the damn song".   

I could be wrong ... but I thought that their appearance on early monophonic hardware synths was specifically to allow chords to be played on the limited hardware ... pretty much in the same way as early computers with few PSG channels. 

It was then that the musicians found more-interesting uses for them in creating cascading streams of notes faster than a human could hit the keys on a keyboard. 

It's rare to find a track that uses them well, honestly.

This is one of the only ones I can think of that does something good with them.  They used them as upstroke sounding chords, and then a reasonably not-over-powering background noise.

Yep, they're probably better-off when pushed back in the mix like that C64 tune.

I may have brought them too-far-forward with my quick-and-dirty Navy Seals translation, and my crappy gameboy-style envelope emulation doesn't help the sound.

I'm looking forward to implementing much better envelopes when I start importing deflemask data.

Michirin9801's "Misty Blue" cover is the one that I really want to get working in order to read from deflemask files, and to add whatever enhancements are practically-needed to the driver.

Oh gosh, hearing that one in a proper rom would make me so happy!
(even happier if you can emulate this look)

The driver needs to be able to play deflemask tunes in order to be useful for homebrew ... I'm just lucky to have someone like you that is actually creating good music in deflemask that closely-resembles the way that pro-musicians put stuff together back-in-the-day (i.e. careful use of repeating patterns/sequences and no samples).

I don't know if I'll be able to *practically* recreate all of Delek's effect-processing, but I'll sure give it a try. 

Recreating the PC88 screen is easy, and might be fun for a laugh!

I just suspect that nobody would be interested-enough to try. 

Well, I could TRY to do it, but I can't guarantee I'll actually finish it >w>
But hey, there's no harm in trying right?

Your tunes show a love and passion for the originals ... don't feel like you have to play with the Navy Seals tune on my account, only do it if you actually like it.

The Amiga version is a very different take on the same tune, and more to some people's taste. The sampled pan-pipe is much better than the gameboy tone that I'm using on the PCE.

I have to admit that I'm curious if the PCE could make something closer to that sound in the hands of a skilled musician.

Excellent job,and how about the music size ??

Thanks! 

The tune data is a bit less than 3KB.

The Navy Seals soundtrack is also really good; the Amiga title screen song being one of the best.

The sampled pipes sound great ... but I actually find that version a bit "empty" sounding after the GB version.

It doesn't help that some of the notes sound a bit cut-off on the Amiga. I don't remember implementing release stages to the volume envelopes on that driver, because nobody asked for them, or asked for a note-off command to trigger them.

I could be wrong ... I'd have to check the source-code.

elmer: is this what you mean by prog-rock?

Yep, that's a good example. Very ELP. 

Nice work so far, good to see more sound tools.

It's a decent start ... but as you know yourself, it's all really about the tools that surround the driver so that the musician can actually create a good tune and get it in exported in a format that the driver can use.

Oh ... then there's getting the driver's effects-processing to reasonably-match the sound that the musician hears in the package that they use to create the tune.   

Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends

Ahhhh ... ELP, good stuff! I'm really more of a Tull fan, though. 

I had to google arpeggio, and I'm still confused. If its just notes of a chord played in succession, how does that relate to a music driver? Don't you tell the music driver what to play? Couldn't it be any note?

Arpeggios in sound-drivers (or synthesizers) aren't produced by the musician pressing a different key for each individual note ... the musician just hits a base note/chord, and the driver/keyboard itself goes wild and starts spewing forth notes in a pattern that the musician defines.

The definition of that pattern, and how fast it plays, are "special effects" in the driver itself, and are not seen in the main song data.

See https://www.attackmagazine.com/technique/tutorials/an-introduction-to-arpeggiators/

Anyway, is this music driver something that will integrate with HuC, like Squirrel?

That's the idea.

It's why the interface between HuC's startup.asm and Squirrel has been abstracted out into a few macro calls in the new HuC, so that *any* different sound driver can just slot-in and be used with HuC, without having to change HuC's internal files.

Although my favourite tracks are the ones without Arpeggios >w>

Sacrilege! 

[Arkhan Asylum]

I honestly can't think of any example of an old synth group using a monophonic synth's arpeggiator to produce the typical chiptune arp sound, unless you count Devo doing it to create shrill background noise.   

I'm sure there's probably some song or group who did it that I can't recall, but it definitely did not catch on, and wasn't the common usage of the arpeggiator on a synth. 

By the time good monophonic synths hit the market, there were already solid polyphonic synths if people wanted to play chords.  Shit, the one could be attached to C64s and programmed from there.   That was interesting. 

Now, I can think of countless examples of them using the arpeggiator like normal human beings to create bass riffs, fills, and other musical things, though.

arpeggio is a real musical term of playing the notes of a chord individually.  It's often referred to as raking, or sweeping because of the visual appearance of it while playing (on a stringed instrument).   It's generally used to create a nice, flowing part of a song.   All that fast paced shredding you hear in metal is often just a bunch of sweep arpeggios. 

synth groups like New Order used nicely placed arpeggiation in their songs (Bizzare Love Triangle has some good ones).  Or Kraftwerk, for nice, but weirder stuff.

https://youtu.be/BnGGkluWtrE  those string sounds in the background around 2 minutes in use an arpeggiator on the synth, and they just hold chords down and let it go.

https://youtu.be/IscClP8r4_g  lol, this song has them in the background during the intro/outro.   Imagine if they sped the rate up.  It wouldn't sound as nice.  The notes wouldn't be audible.   You lose the flowy-ness of it completely.

Here's a good example of synthesized arpeggios that sound good, and definitely aren't taking a backseat:
https://youtu.be/jPGTAR3ODSE

And here's some guitar ones:
https://youtu.be/zhpHKePY9O8

sidenote, too:  People *can* play the piano arpeggios that fast, but it requires concentration and 100% accuracy + timing, which isn't so easy when your other hand is doing something else on another keyboard, lol.   

"arp" or "arps" is a slang term applied to the "arpeggios" you hear in chiptunes.  While technically still "notes of a chord played individually", the rate at which they cycle is so fast it just creates that blurry noise, instead of a nice flowing arpeggio.   they're basically arpeggios by definition, not by execution

When used carefully, it'll be ok.   When used excessively, it just makes songs sound like total horseshit because it just sounds like a bunch of gremlins on motorcycles riding around in circles while jamming forks in blenders.

You never really hear this effect used in the same manner that you'd hear arpeggios in any other situation.   People who want them tend to just punch in arpeggios in a step-sequenced manner.

It's generally the first effect people fudge around with in a tracker, and it sounds reasonably nice, but then everyone gets excited and overdoes it.

That noise has effectively become the "chiptune" sound, now. 

gross.

[spenoza]

Most chiptune arpeggios have more to n common with a trill.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Most chiptune arpeggios have more to n common with a trill.

yeah.  pretty much. 

[esteban]

...

I don't know if I'll be able to *practically* recreate all of Dalek's effect-processing, but I'll sure give it a try. 

Recreating the PC88 screen is easy, and might be fun for a laugh!

I *knew* it. It explains everything...

[TailChao]

It's a decent start ... but as you know yourself, it's all really about the tools that surround the driver so that the musician can actually create a good tune and get it in exported in a format that the driver can use.

Oh ... then there's getting the driver's effects-processing to reasonably-match the sound that the musician hears in the package that they use to create the tune.   

Yeah, although I do think you have the right idea by just going straight for Deflemask support. It's a good tool and the time saved from the composer's end will likely justify the investment.

Funny sound languages are outdated and I'm going to eventually have to part with my own (or hide it under several carpets).

Ahhhh ... ELP, good stuff! I'm really more of a Tull fan, though. 

Nothing wrong with that 

[elmer]

Most chiptune arpeggios have more to n common with a trill.

That's actually a really nice way of describing the difference! 

I don't know if I'll be able to *practically* recreate all of Dalek's effect-processing, but I'll sure give it a try. 

I *knew* it. It explains everything...

Yep, deflemask is out to exterminate the competition! 

Yeah, although I do think you have the right idea by just going straight for Deflemask support. It's a good tool and the time saved from the composer's end will likely justify the investment.

Funny sound languages are outdated and I'm going to eventually have to part with my own (or hide it under several carpets).

Those old languages were the best that was practically available BITD, but the world has moved on.

We're just not getting a flood of musicians turning up with a desire to write MML in order to make a PCE chiptune.

As the saying goes ... 'If the mountain will not come to Muhammad, then Muhammad must go to the mountain'. 

[Arkhan Asylum]

Were not really getting alot of musicians in the first place.

And, like ive said a few times now...

Mml is still being used for Mabinogi, often by like, 15 year olds.

¯(°_o)/¯

[elmer]

Were not really getting alot of musicians in the first place.

Yep, and that's a bit of a problem for those (few) folks here that want to create PCE homebrew.

And, like ive said a few times now...

Mml is still being used for Mabinogi, often by like, 15 year olds.

Absolutely ... in those countries where Mabinogi is actually still popular.

And are those 15 year olds then turning around and creating lots of MML music for the MSX or the PCE? 


In the meantime, we have the appearance of deflemask, which despite its flaws, is being used by people like Michirin9801 and JIR-O and others to create PCE music right now, and we don't currently have a way to harness their creativity and passion to help PCE homebrew developers.

From my POV, it's just a question of how to solve the perceived problem of lack of musicians.

I can't force people to learn MML.
I can try to write something that allows them to use the tools that they know to create music that folks here can use.

BTW, I'm not trying to start a religious war ... I think that I've said this before ... there is very little difference between the data format that my driver is processing now, and the compiled-MML format that the System Card Player uses.

My driver currently uses 1-byte note (including octave), and 1-byte length in 1/60s increments, and it allows transposing segments of music data (what I called a "sequence", and what deflemask calls a "pattern").

The only difference with the System Card Player's data format (when it is used in "Direct" mode), is that it stores the note without an octave, and keeps that infomation in a separate place.

Not a huge difference in the basic data structure.

While I find it ugly, I'm not really against MML. I'm just not convinced that continuing down that path moves us forwards at all.

Folks can already use MML with Squirrel ... and if you desired to do so, then you should be able to modify Squirrel to spit out something that my driver could be changed to read, quite easily.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Protip:  Mabinogi is popular in USA, and people like my high school dropout cousin dick around with MML in it, lol.

The downside is, most of the Mabinogi players don't really do any retro gaming at all.

You might not be trying to start a religious war.  It's just that you sort of constantly make remarks implying that MML is inadequate or obsolete, and it errs on the side of ignorance.   Doing this is precisely what people have been doing for a decade or more with regards to MML, and all it's done is perpetuate the ignorance, and cause people to run away screaming.     

While you and some others may not prefer it, this certainly doesn't mean it's obsolete or inadequate. 

One great perk to using MML is that it's sort of more portable.   I can move a song from MSX to PCE or back again pretty easily.   Or I can turn it back into a MIDI and make it sound like real instruments were involved.  This is a nice side effect.

[Gredler]

As bad ass as MML and Squirrel can be, it really has been difficult finding someone who is a musician that is not only interested in retro games but is also technically proficient enough to create a specific midi that converts cleanly to mml that is then cleaned up for export through squirrel. I have found multiple friends who do deflemask, for whatever reason.

If only the rest of us were on the same level as you Arkhan, but most of us are not as much as I would like to be or have friends that could be. We're dumber than 15 year olds, sorry

[esteban]

Protip:  Mabinogi is popular in USA, and people like my high school dropout cousin dick around with MML in it, lol.

The downside is, most of the Mabinogi players don't really do any retro gaming at all.

Perfect. I look forward to hearing an album's worth of PSG songs from your cousin. I don't care* what genre of music it is, just guide him (so it sounds halfway decent on PCE). Tell him that constraints (PSG PCE) are actually an engine for creativity. He is not shackled. He will benefit from this. So will I.

Thank you, in advance, for agreeing to convert all of his music to PCE.

*Disclaimer: Naturally, there is no need to convert Rush/Pink Floyd covers. It'll be our secret.

[Arkhan Asylum]

As bad ass as MML and Squirrel can be, it really has been difficult finding someone who is a musician that is not only interested in retro games but is also technically proficient enough to create a specific midi that converts cleanly to mml that is then cleaned up for export through squirrel. I have found multiple friends who do deflemask, for whatever reason.

If only the rest of us were on the same level as you Arkhan, but most of us are not as much as I would like to be or have friends that could be. We're dumber than 15 year olds, sorry

whoever you have that has issues with Squirrel, have them get in touch with me.   They might just be making one tiny stupid error

[elmer]

You might not be trying to start a religious war.  It's just that you sort of constantly make remarks implying that MML is inadequate or obsolete, and it errs on the side of ignorance.   Doing this is precisely what people have been doing for a decade or more with regards to MML, and all it's done is perpetuate the ignorance, and cause people to run away screaming.     

While you and some others may not prefer it, this certainly doesn't mean it's obsolete or inadequate. 

I will happily admit to being ignorant when it comes to the actual creation of music, and the magic that goes on in a composer's head.

The recent thread about the musician in Japan who is still creating wonderful-sounding stuff with husic shows that, in the right hands, there's nothing inadequate about MML.

It's just another musical notation.


But ... looking purely at the process that's involved, I can only agree with TailChao ...

Funny sound languages are outdated and I'm going to eventually have to part with my own (or hide it under several carpets).

I tend to point out flaws in all sorts of things ... including my own work.

If you want some "balance", then I'm happy to start ragging on some of the things in deflemask, especially now that I'm getting further into exploring its data format, and how I can process it into something that I can use.

For instance, apart from the half-dozen times that deflemask has crashed while I've been poking around with it ... I got to ask ... why doesn't there seem to be any way to transpose sections of music/pattern data?

I thought that was supposed to be a common occurrence in music data.

Without that, I expect that the converted data will be considerably larger than I'd like. 

[Arkhan Asylum]

transpose?  that's pretty easy in MML...  you just type like 2 characters.  lol




I suspect that most of the issue with MML is that the people trying to use it are "musicians" in the sense that they can doodle around in a tracker, and play by ear, but the actual sheet music/theory portion of it has eluded them.

It's like when you find someone that kills it with a flute or something, but if you hand them sheet music they go "uh".

If you can't read sheet music, it seems that MML is extra effort.

[spenoza]

I suspect that most of the issue with MML is that the people trying to use it are "musicians" in the sense that they can doodle around in a tracker, and play by ear, but the actual sheet music/theory portion of it has eluded them.

There's also the baggage of time. Various tracker software packages have been free for a while, whereas good DAW packages typically cost money, and not cheap money, and are a bit more complex and fully featured. For those with less proper musical experience, a more functionally limited and non-expert environment is more useful. Also, folks who actually know music AND are comfortable in DAW environments are likely doing something with music that's more interesting to them than composing tunes for the PCE and then dealing with the environmental limitations (waveforms and envelope shaping). It's the non-trained music hobbyists (maybe gamers first, hobbyist non-musician music crafters second) who will have more time or inclination to make PCE tunes.

So basically, Arkhan is backing MML, which is a better format for musicians, who are, annoyingly, less likely to be interested in our homebrew scene. Elmer is trying to accommodate the less professional tracker scene, which has a lot of hobbyist music makers (often without any education or training in music), but is maybe more likely to be coaxed into composing for a homebrew project.

Basically, Arkhan's a (talented) freak. He has some music training and education AND is interested in older technology. Elmer, I think, is a little more of a pragmatist on this front, and I suspect the direction he's going will be more helpful to homebrew developers who are not Arkhan and will need to rope in others to make music for them. But Elmer's approach would not be helpful to Arkhan for developing music for his own titles, so it's a wash. Both systems will work just great for their respective audiences, and having both present in our homebrew scene is the best solution, because it means that more people will be able to find tools better-suited to their own skills or available talent pools. Win-win!

I know if I were to try and get my wife (music therapist, so LOTS of traditional music education and experience) into composing PCE tracks, a tracker-based setup would be a complete bust for her. She would probably do better working in something that could give her MIDI to convert to MML, and thus Arkhan's music path. Trackers wouldn't suite her at all. And then I would have to work with her to craft proper waveforms and envelopes, because she's not a technologist.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I dunno, there are free things:
https://routenote.com/blog/the-10-best-free-daws-available/


But, I can't tell how daunting they are to people.   I find that trackers are more hard to get into because to me they've never exactly been intuitive.   I hated using octamed on my Amiga as a kid.

I think a lot of it simply has to do with this strange chain of events everyone seems to follow.

1) I want to make a chiptune
2) This chiptune was made with a tracker.
3) What is a tracker
4) I found a tracker, time to get good at it
5) I got good at it.  It took awhile, and it was annoying.   I'll forget this detail.
6) What's an MML. 
7) No
DAWs are hard. I like trackers.

I think if you swapped parts 3 and 6, you'd get the same effect in reverse.

lol

[spenoza]

Trackers seem to make an amazing amount of sense to non-musicians, and I'm not entirely sure why. It's like people who don't understand music just don't know what to do with a DAW at all. They go cross-eyed staring at it. But you put them in front of a tracker and they're happy to poke away at shit until they have an ear-bending mess. The world is a strange place.

[elmer]

Basically, Arkhan's a (talented) freak. He has some music training and education AND is interested in older technology.

This is the problem, in a nutshell ...

1: You take the folks that learned to play sheet music at school, and who probably played in the band.
2: Take the few that actually still want to keep on playing when they're older.
3: Take the few of those that want to compose instead of just playing in their garage band or cover band.
4: Take the few of those that have a passion for old videogame consoles.
5: Take the few of those that have the technical skills to deal with the limitations of PSG chips.
6: Take the few of those that have the detailed technical desire to deal with waveforms and volume envelopes.
7: Take the few of those that are willing to enter those waveforms and envelopes in a very-specific format in a text editor.
8: Take the few of those that hang around in English-speaking forums that are interested in old consoles that failed badly in the commercial marketplace in the Western World, and are barely known.

... and you've got a very small pool of people to go to.

Both systems will work just great for their respective audiences, and having both present in our homebrew scene is the best solution, because it means that more people will be able to find tools better-suited to their own skills or available talent pools. Win-win!

That's the hope.

Trackers seem to make an amazing amount of sense to non-musicians, and I'm not entirely sure why. It's like people who don't understand music just don't know what to do with a DAW at all. They go cross-eyed staring at it. But you put them in front of a tracker and they're happy to poke away at shit until they have an ear-bending mess. The world is a strange place.

I suspect that it's like most creative-endeavors.

Getting *started* is often the hardest thing, and lowering that hurdle to make it as easy-as-possible to start creating a noise, no matter how horrible that noise is ... at least gives people some quick feedback that they start iterating on to improve it.

Trackers provide a simple-but-rigid framework that give folks somewhere to start.

I'm sure that it can/would feel like a straight-jacket to someone like Arkhan ... but for others, it would allow them to just jump right in.

At the end of the day, it's not the tool that makes the song, it's the musician.

I've heard horrible-sounding MML tracks, and I've heard horrible-sounding Deflemask tracks.

What is actually surprising to me, is that there are a couple of people out there, like Michirin9801 and JIR-O, that have created really excellent-sounding music within the limitations of the Deflemask sound engine, and have worked-out some really creative ways around those limitations.


**********************

For instance, apart from the half-dozen times that deflemask has crashed while I've been poking around with it ... I got to ask ... why doesn't there seem to be any way to transpose sections of music/pattern data?

I thought that was supposed to be a common occurrence in music data.

Without that, I expect that the converted data will be considerably larger than I'd like. 

I've done the 1st tests at converting deflemask pattern data into something semi-efficient that I'll be able to write out and have my sound driver process, and I'm quite happy with the results.

It's definitely bigger than the sort of hand-optimized compiled-MML-descendant that you'd have seen back-in-the-day, but with some careful encoding, it's not bad at all.

Michirin9801's "Misty Blue" cover is using approx 3.5KB of pattern data (for notes, effects and timing).

The largest track that I've seen so far uses approx 5KB of pattern data.

The total usage will get bigger as things like waveforms and effects-envelopes, and samples are added, but I don't see why a complex tune (excluding samples) shouldn't easily fit in less than 8KB.

I don't really see (yet) why the sound driver itself should get much larger than its current 2KB size ... but lets allow for 3KB in order to add the sample-playback code ... hmmm, maybe 4KB max if I add the code for the ADPCM chip in the CD hardware.

BTW ... the driver allows for a complete set of sound effect channels, with per-channel override, so when it's all done, it should be immediately-usable in a game.

[Gredler]

I imagine it's the difference between using a pre-developed engine vs coding your own; modern pre-developed engines are full of limitations but the barrier to entry is very low.

whoever you have that has issues with Squirrel, have them get in touch with me.   They might just be making one tiny stupid error

The dude's so burned out on trying and keeps telling me we should be making it a mobile game with micro transactions. I don't have a friend who is interested in TG16 development, I was just trying to get a favor and convince them to do so.

[touko]

I think the goal,is to have 2/3 drivers, you'll have just to include the desired one as you did with sgx or AC support .

[TailChao]

At the end of the day, it's not the tool that makes the song, it's the musician.

This is a fairly important point which I don't see addressed much.

Creating a game soundtrack is already a significant time investment, making it within the limitations of old hardware can be worse. Sometimes it can be easier to split the job into composition and sound programming with some back and forth between both parties.

Really - it's not whether trackers, sound languages, or whatever driver is best that matters. Just use what works best for your group. You're all lucky enough to be working with a console with a CD upgrade and can just toss all these dumb requirements out the window anyway.

[Michirin9801]

If I may offer my own perspective (also, sorry for my absence in the last few days)
I don't have a whole lot of experience with music, just a little over 2 years of self-taught covering of whatever I can listen to on Hoot or JCOM-SPC, among others, and I started off with Musagi which is an amateur-friendly DAW (sort of), but I saw a lot of people using Famitracker to make music for the Nintendo, and to me the thing looked like a bloody mess, I mean, it's a spreadsheet with a bunch of numbers and letters, dafuq? How does that work? But then I've heard that the music they were making would run in real hardware (so long as they aren't using expansion chips) and that was like: Wow! I wish I could make music that would run in real hardware! But you know, I don't wanna make music for the Nintendo, everyone and their moms already do Nintendo, it's so overdone, I wanna do something more powerful, more capable, more sophisticate! I wanna do chiptunes for the 16 bit systems!
And then I discovered Deflemask, and again, I thought it was a mess, but after a friend of mine explained to me how it worked it simply clicked with me and I started doing music for the PC engine! And after I started using Deflemask I never went back to Musagi (well, I did once, but then never again)

I'm a bit of a lazy and impatient person, and I like immediate feedback, and with Deflemask I get that immediate feedback! The software may be really flawed, but it's really quick and easy to make something awesome-sounding in it! But as I've said before, I would attempt to learn MML if I had to, but PC engine music isn't really my main motivation to do MML, it's PC-98 music, I mean, I can already do PCE music in Deflemask, but the only way to make music for the PC-98 as far as I'm concerned is by using PMD, which requires MML, but even that I have a work-around for, which is to use 6 FM channels of the YM2151 and 1 ADPCM channel in Deflemask for custom samples, then I use the other ADPCM channels for the RSS, and 3 channels of the PCE doing only square waves and/or noise in another instance of Deflemask to simulate the SSG, and then I put the two together and voila! I have something pretty close to PC-98 sound! (Why not just use Genesis you ask? Because it just doesn't sound as good, I have to sacrifice 1 FM channel to get a really s***ty PCM and the SMS PSG can't go low enough in pitch)

Having to learn MML would require me to pretty much start over, I might do it if I have to, but I'm not in a hurry... But that's not all, having the knowledge of one tracker helps you work on pretty much any other tracker, after much stubborn hesitation I gave in and tried out Famitracker, but with two rules:
1 - Triangle bass is Forbidden! It's Sunsoft DPCM bass or nothing!
2 - No expansion chips, raw NES only!
And yeah, Famitracker is also pretty easy and fun to use! And then I tried OpenMPT, which is NOT easy and fun to use, but after a whole lot of tinkering with it I've managed to get it to control almost like Deflemask, it's close enough, but still really clunky in comparison... But hey! I can make Super Nintendo music with it! And it WILL run in real hardware! My dreams had come true~ (Well, some of them at least)
It's kinda like Fighting games you know? Some people think the button commands are a mess, but once it clicks with you they're a lot of fun and you don't wanna stop playing them, and the knowledge of one fighting game transfers into pretty much all others! (The good ones at least)

So what's the point of this wall of text? Well there's a few:
One: Me and a few other people are passionate retro-gamers and hobbyist musicians who want to hear their songs playing in real hardware, and maybe even in a real game, but can't be arsed to start over with a whole other method of making music than the ones they're used to just to go through with that desire...
Two: NINTENDO MUSIC IS OVERDONE! Do more PC engine and Super Nintendo music goddamnit! (Or at least do more DPCM bass!)
Three: I want an OPN/OPNA compatible tracker, but that's a matter for another forum entirely...

[Arkhan Asylum]

So you sort of just confirmed what I said, lol.

Trackers were painful / weird to you in the beginning as well.   You had to have someone explain it, and show you it, on top of probably loading up other people's examples to figure out how the wall of text somehow equates to sounds. 

This is what a lot of people did, and now they like trackers by default.  They're popular by virtue of being the only real option. 

Oddly enough, I grew up on Octamed, Protracker, and then OpenMPT on Windows... and Impulse/Scream Tracker/FastTracker.     I'm pretty experienced with using them.    I just hate using them.   I used to sample crap on my Amiga500 all the time.   It was pretty janky, to be honest.   I liked this program called EMS on C64 way more, but nobody uses that anymore I don't think.   EMS 7 had a tight intro song.

https://youtu.be/ch8ntVgcH4k   and the demo for 10 belts out some YMO, so that's cool.    The MSX YMO mix is better though...   https://youtu.be/5YjYEJ9WHt4     

I think the bit lots of people miss is that you don't really compose in MML.   It's a clunky, mental thing to try to do.   

You just translate your stuff over to it once you write a thing.   You don't realize it but you're sort of almost doing MML by punching crap into a tracker, to be honest.   The durations are changed into the space between notes.   If you turn your head sideways while doing MML, it's close to a tracker, lol.   You can translate (or convert) your tracker tunes to MML.    You'll probably have to redo slides/etc.. 

Here's an example of what I mean though:

Chimera for C64, the original song:
https://youtu.be/w6Jxkyhtjdw

put onto the C64:
https://youtu.be/RcfXbHLQyQQ

It wasn't composed on the C64.   It was just put there later.

This has become my preferred method, because I often find it easier to just compose a song on a keyboard or with a guitar.   I can imagine what I would want stuff to sound like, so then I just do the sound shaping once I've converted the actual song.

and it also means I can recycle the music.    Insanity's entire soundtrack exists as FruityLoops files.   I can barf the midi out to real synthesizers and drum machines, or, what I did at the time, was run the lead MIDI out into a real C64, and let fruity loops control a real C64 for the lead and bass sounds... and then the audio came back to the PC to record it and put it in the song. 

You get more options if you break into a piece of software designed for professional music.   Being able to create CD/chip music simultaneously is also a nice perk.   

This doesn't work for everyone though, since it requires knowing how to use music instruments (or punching notes in via a piano roll with the mouse).

You might enjoy trying it out sometime though, because it will give you the added benefit of accidentally picking up how to play a keyboard or something.    there's lots of free DAWs out there, and free VSTs that emulate a bunch of old machines.



Also, I agree that Nintendo music is overdone.  The word chiptune isn't even completely accurate anymore.   It's become slang for "NES/Gameboy wankmusic". 

That's what everyone does.   So, I am glad there are more people coming to TurboTown to make music.    I made sure to avoid creating music for all the Aetherbyte games that sounded like typical chiptune hoojoo nonsense.   

fuck arps.

[esteban]

...fuck arps.

Unacceptable.

[TurboXray]

If I may offer ..

Please make this song for PCE

[Michirin9801]

So you sort of just confirmed what I said, lol.

Trackers were painful / weird to you in the beginning as well.   You had to have someone explain it, and show you it, on top of probably loading up other people's examples to figure out how the wall of text somehow equates to sounds. 

Well, kind of... The point I was kinda trying to make is that they look harder to use than they actually are, but once it clicks with you you don't wanna go back to other music-making methods because using a tracker is a lot easier, quicker and more fun!
Or at least I didn't want to go back to using Chip32 and C-700 with Musagi, it's really slow and clunky in comparison, it looks more intuitive, but there's a reason why I never went back to it...

That said though I don't have to use a DAW to make a MIDI when OpenMPT can export MIDIs! If I were to use the MIDI-to-MML alternative I'd just use OpenMPT, however I'd still have to learn how to clean up the MML so that it would sound the way I want it to sound, and then comes the part where I said I'm lazy, impatient, not in a hurry and like the immediate feedback that I get from a tracker, which is more of a 'Me' problem than an MML problem... Someday it will be nice to get into in order to make real PC-98 music, but for PC engine, I'm just glad that there's people like elmer making a sound engine that can actually put the stuff I can make right now to good use!

Now I completely understand and respect that you prefer to use DAWs and use MML to make real chiptunes, but a whole lot of people have grown accustomed to trackers, and I believe the reason why I like them is the reason why most of the other tracker-users do...

Also, I agree that Nintendo music is overdone.  The word chiptune isn't even completely accurate anymore.   It's become slang for "NES/Gameboy wankmusic". 

That's what everyone does.   So, I am glad there are more people coming to TurboTown to make music.    I made sure to avoid creating music for all the Aetherbutt games that sounded like typical chiptune hoojoo nonsense.   

fuck arps.

Hooray! I'm not the only one o//
But still, Sunsoft's DPCM Bass is cool, it's the one thing that people don't do a lot on NES but should, and Game Boy is WAY better than NES because channel 3 does 4 bit wavetables instead of a bloody triangle, triangle makes for a terrible bass, but heck, you're better off putting the bass on one of the pulse channels and using the DAC to play the lead, that way you can make the GB sound less like a 'better NES' and more like a 'not-as-good PCE' which is high praise coming from me...