Ninja Ryuukenden(PC-Engine) Vs. Ninja Gaiden(NES)

[Magister]

What kills it for me with the PC-Engine version is the music.  It just sucks compared to the NES version.  And what the hell is up with the scrolling background?

[EmperorIng]

People may make up all sorts of excuses for PCE Ninja Gaiden, but at the end of the day it plays mechanically inferior to the ultra-tight NES original which makes it a cheap and worthless imitation. Enemies are lethargic and less aggressive, your attacks are slower, and you can no longer insta-kill some bosses with the jump-slash - which far from "fixing" the game forces good players to boringly plod out against early-game foes instead of ripping through the first couple of levels like a real ninja master. To say nothing of the shoddy hit-detection that makes the game feel off-kilter.

The laughably bad graphics (Ryu's head is at the same height as all doorknobs) and music are the cherries on top of a turd sundae.

[blueraven]

We had this discussion about 6 years ago, I forget the thread title, maybe NecroPhile will remember it.

Anyway, Yes the Ninja Giaden Hu-Card does leave something to be desired and most of the complaints are in the sound realm and the lack of good scrolling - seen specifically at the beginning of game where the background is jarring along in a jagged fashion as you repeatedly slash at re-spawning enemies while trying not to fall into the abyss. It has some serious flaws compared to the NES version, and most people back when were really disappointed in it for the value... Even in 2010 it was one of the more expensive games and after shelling out $65-70 for the game when NG1 was still about $15 for the NES in some cases they just went and played the NES version.

Anyway, the chiptunes are "good" but kind of suck compared to the NES music, and are like a more minimalist version, which I assume is due to space limitation. 

A few other things, Ryu is really clunky. The control responses are not as precise as the NES version, and the speed at which he slashes his sword is significantly slowed down compared to the NES, which has caused folks who have memorized the playthrough or like to do TAS speedruns immensely frustrated because it DOES NOT APPLY HUMAIN. Also, you will inevitably take more hits as a result of this, and it makes Ryu respond more like Moon from Ninja Spirit (Who is the slowest platformer protagonist I can think of) and you will just incur a lot more damage. It makes the game harder as a result imo. Fuck. I want to play the NES version now.

So there you have it in a nutshell.

Oh the color palette is a lot brighter on the PCE version, and the sprites are bigger, but I don't think that constitutes for better gameplay. Nice looking game, not so fun to play. But still pretty badass.

[PukeSter]

I always preferred the pce version. I like the soundtrack more, the graphics are a lot better, and the birds don't do as much damage. I'm also actually hitting enemies with my sword, rather than a weird space in front.

The choppy scrolling doesn't bother me and it's only in half the levels or less. Didn't Ys 3 have choppy scrolling yet no one even complained about it.

I know I'm in the minority though.

And honestly, folks who never could beat the nes version should try the pce port. It's definitely a bit easier.

Another note. Unlike the nes version, you can walljump continuously up onto a pillar and get on top, instead of having to jump back and forth between walls to get on top. Try it!

[DragonmasterDan]

I was playing this yesterday and noticed the control also feels a little more slippery than the NES version. This is in addition to the inferior music and scrolling, with that said it's still an excellent game.

[DragonmasterDan]

Anyway, the chiptunes are "good" but kind of suck compared to the NES music, and are like a more minimalist version, which I assume is due to space limitation. 

Well, and the reason it's not using the NES music I'm guessing is due to rights. Perhaps Tecmo had licensed a composer to do the NES music rather than outright buying it (ala a lot of Yuzo Koshiro games where you'd have Streets of Rage compilations with different music) and when sub-licensing the game to Hudson decided not to spend the extra money for the original soundtrack.

[CrackTiger]

People may make up all sorts of excuses for PCE Ninja Gaiden, but at the end of the day it plays mechanically inferior to the ultra-tight NES original which makes it a cheap and worthless imitation. Enemies are lethargic and less aggressive, your attacks are slower, and you can no longer insta-kill some bosses with the jump-slash - which far from "fixing" the game forces good players to boringly plod out against early-game foes instead of ripping through the first couple of levels like a real ninja master. To say nothing of the shoddy hit-detection that makes the game feel off-kilter.

In the NES version, if you hit enemies with your sword, they take no damage and the hurt you instead. At least in Night Creaturrs, this isn't always the case.

The real problem isn't how good or bad that the PCE version may actually be, it's that Ninja Gaiden is one of too many "legendary" (Nintendo) games that its fans are incapable of taking seriously, due to being blinded by nostalgia. I've never heard the logical argument of "yeah, it's messed up, but I just like it for what it is". This post is a perfect example:

"The PCE version sux, cuz the game-breaking mechanics of the original no longer work. So instead of cheating, I actually have to play the stupid game!"

It would be one thing if people were only reverse engineering excuses for games based on "everyone knows it's an absolutly perfect legendary classic". But the PCE version of Ninja Gaiden is a good example of how irrationally people come up with any reason that a perceived rival game isn't the same as good. It's brings out the same kind of reasoning that console war fans use.

[TurboXray]

I like that the PCE version fixes a lot of stuff, but it also feels like an off-sync clone (a really close one, though) rather than a port. SMB games ported to All-Stars *feel* like the originals, with upgrades. The PCE doesn't. It feels like an approximation. And that's in quite a few departments (including art style). If you don't have a fondness of the original, then I guess you won't notice these nuances and differences. It's why I'll keep going back to the NES game, over the PCE one.

 For the record, I also think Ninja Gaiden on the SMS is a fine game - just not a Ninja Gaiden in the classic sense. It's a skinned over shinobi GG port of.. something (feels more in common with those in its design). I also find that people who like the SMS game, also tend not be fans of the NES originals as well.

 But yeah, the music is big part of the NES series. It really does add something to the game. Without it, it feels less.. more meh.

[Psycho Punch]

What mapper does Ninja Gaiden uses on the nes? It might be a better idea to do a Bonknuts-style "port" of the game and optionally add a rip of the PCE version of the tileset on top of it, considering all the flaws of the PCE version.

PCE Ninja Gaiden, what a missed opportunity.

[DragonmasterDan]

In the NES version, if you hit enemies with your sword, they take no damage and the hurt you instead. At least in Night Creaturrs, this isn't always the case.

The real problem isn't how good or bad that the PCE version may actually be, it's that Ninja Gaiden is one of too many "legendary" (Nintendo) games that its fans are incapable of taking seriously, due to being blinded by nostalgia. I've never heard the logical argument of "yeah, it's messed up, but I just like it for what it is".

Yep, any game with constant enemy respawns from off-screen at high speeds clearly has major flaws. And Ninja Gaiden is a flawed game no matter which version you're looking at.

[Magister]

I can't make an unbiased review of these games.  I played all three of the NES games and loved them.  Still have them to this day.  I have the three SNES versions of the game as well, unlocked on my copy of Ninja Gaiden for the Xbox which I think suck just because of the change in music.  There is nothing I like about the PC-Engine version.  The music alone is just painful.  And the way Ryu looks in the cut scenes is just blah.  I'm sure it has to do with the fact of how much I like the NES ones.

[TheClash603]

Also PC-E version is much easier, I pretty much blew through it a few years ago my first attempt.  This was after the NES game kicked my ass for years.

[ParanoiaDragon]

Since I didn't have a super amount of exposure to the first Ninja Gaiden growing up, I actually prefer the music in the PCE version.  I've played that one far more over the years.

[DragonmasterDan]

Also PC-E version is much easier, I pretty much blew through it a few years ago my first attempt.  This was after the NES game kicked my ass for years.

Yeah, it allows you to take a lot more damage than the NES version.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Neither is that good.  Ninja Gaiden 2 is better, lol.

The scrolling is probably the only thing in the PCE one that I hate.   I don't get how they even let that shit out the door like that.   It didn't even have to be like that.

The sprites also needed better shading on PCE.   They could have done a better job adding some contrast/shading to the enemies, and Ryu.

I actually prefer the PCE music for the most part.  I just wish Level 1's NES music was on the PCE.

[exodus]

The PCE version does have some advantages - for one, explosions don't cut off the music. For another, massively more colors and better animation across the board.

But it doesn't control quite as nicely, and that's the main reason it will probably always feel inferior.

[Keith Courage]

Most people here must be saying the NES version is better due to nostalgia. I played neither one growing up and have to say the PCE version is far better in my opinion. The graphics and colors looks so much better and the audio overall is much better quality wise regardless of which music tracks are included vs the nes.

[seieienbu]

I grew up playing the NES one but was never able to beat it.  I seem to recall getting to the second to final boss but never being able to win.  I beat the second and third games multiple times.  I played through the PCE version back in December and beat it without too much of a hassle.  I died a few times, sure, but I don't think it even took me 2 hours to get all the way through.

I think that I like the PC Engine version more but without playing the NES version recently I can't really be certain.  Either way, I like both of the sequels more than the original.

[esteban]

Most people here must be saying the NES version is better due to nostalgia. I played neither one growing up and have to say the pce version is far better in my opinion. The graphics and colors looks so much better and the audio over all is much better quality wise regardless of which music tracks are included vs the nes.

You crazy.

But I still love you.

The NES version is better.

Yup, warts and all, it is the better version.

I am sorry, but folks who prefer the PCE version have not *thoroughly* played the NES version.

[Magister]

I grew up playing the NES one but was never able to beat it.  I seem to recall getting to the second to final boss but never being able to win.  I beat the second and third games multiple times.  I played through the PCE version back in December and beat it without too much of a hassle.  I died a few times, sure, but I don't think it even took me 2 hours to get all the way through.

I think that I like the PC Engine version more but without playing the NES version recently I can't really be certain.  Either way, I like both of the sequels more than the original.

How the hell can you beat the Third game but not the First one?  The third one is a bitch.  Limited to only three continues makes it even more of a bitch.  Did I mention that game is a bitch?

[TR0N]

I grew up playing the NES one but was never able to beat it.  I seem to recall getting to the second to final boss but never being able to win.  I beat the second and third games multiple times.  I played through the PCE version back in December and beat it without too much of a hassle.  I died a few times, sure, but I don't think it even took me 2 hours to get all the way through.

I think that I like the PC Engine version more but without playing the NES version recently I can't really be certain.  Either way, I like both of the sequels more than the original.

How the hell can you beat the Third game but not the First one?  The third one is a bitch.  Limited to only three continues makes it even more of a bitch.  Did I mention that game is a bitch?

NES version of NG3 is gimped but the famicom version is easier.

[exodus]

I didn't play the NES version - I played both later in life and found the control and feel of the NES version to be much better. and for a PCE game, the port is pretty underwhelming!

[seieienbu]

How the hell can you beat the Third game but not the First one?  The third one is a bitch.  Limited to only three continues makes it even more of a bitch.  Did I mention that game is a bitch?

First and foremost, I haven't played the third Ninja Gaiden in some time.  The last time I played it I recall beating it.  Either way, my recollections may be a bit hazy so take this with some salt.

The part in the final stage of the first Ninja Gaiden there is a section where there are jetpack ninjas, sword throwing lepers, and eagles swooping at you as you are forced to navigate small platforms; this sequence is harder than anything in either the second or third game.  There are a few analogs to this sequence in the third game, but they generally involve small moving platforms.  The fact that you can hang underneath the moving platforms in NG3 means you don't even have to worry about getting knocked off platforms very often.  I recall a segment in the third stage where this is not the case but the game kindly gives you a firewheel immediately before you have to do some technical platforming.  Unlike the first game, most of my deaths in the third seem to be from actually taking too many hits.

Beyond that, the third game plays a good deal slower than the first two letting you have more time to react to enemies.  Combine that with a sword that hits both high and low at the same time and it's a lot easier to hit things that fly around.  You don't have anything as fast as the eagles in the first or the bats in the second game to contend with as you are heading forward (the cyber-wasps or whatever are a good deal slower).  Not only does this make it easier to react to your enemies, but you also get to move forward more before you actually have to deal with anything.  This problem tends to compound itself in the first game due to enemies respawning forever as when you kill an enemy at the point where it spawns it will continue to respawn forever; the third game was nice enough to remove this feature.

Yes, you only have what, 3 continues in NG3?  Well, I used a lot more than 3 continues when playing through the easy version of the first game when I played through it back in December.  I played the second one right afterward and beat it without using any continues but that's really neither here nor there.  I think the second game is the easiest of the three from the NES.

[Gentlegamer]

But the PCE version of Ninja Gaiden is a good example of how irrationally people come up with any reason that a perceived rival game isn't the same as good. It's brings out the same kind of reasoning that console war fans use.

Dude, you do this same crap about Nintendo games, particularly any SNES game someone likes.

[FraGMarE]

I'm fine with how PCE Ninja Gaiden controls, seems ok to me... running, jumping slashing all feel spot on.  What DOESN'T feel spot-on, is the slightly different hit box and reduced hit-recovery time.... couple that with the game's knockback, and that really makes a game like Ninja Gaiden all the more BRUTAL and frustrating.  The choppy scrolling was definitely a "wtf??" moment, but I can get past that.  One thing that's always bothered me about the PCE Ninja Gaiden is why the HELL is your sword a brown-ish color?!  As a pixel artist, i can tell you that if you want to make something look like metal/steel, your best bet is either flat gray with strong contrast or nearly-flat gray tinged ever so slightly blue... not brown.  his sword looks rusty, it's like some kind of programmer inside-joke haha

[Michirin9801]

I've played both versions not far apart from each other, I like them both, but I think each version has its own advantages, to me the graphics on the PC engine are FAR superior in pretty much every way, more colour, more detail, better animation, you know the gist, and I also found the PCE version to be considerably easier, which I find to be a good thing considering how brutal the NES version is...
But the NES version I found to be a little more responsive in the controls and I like the music better on the NES, the PCE music isn't bad at all, but I think the instrumentation could have been better, but the compositions on the NES I found to be just that much better!
Also, about the choppy parallax scrolling on the PCE, it gets better in the later stages, in the first stage it's really jarring, but in the 3rd and 4th stages it's passable... I'd have preferred no parallax scrolling, or at least a smoother scrolling in spots, even if the backgrounds looked more repetitive...

Neither is that good.  Ninja Gaiden 2 is better, lol.

Agreed, Ninja Gaiden 2 fixes a lot of the problems of the original, and because of that it's a lot better and more fun, also, it's the only game in the series I've beaten...

[Dicer]

Whatever happened to the rom hack attempt to just kill the awful scrolling all together? That fix alone would be monumental to improving the game.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Whatever happened to the rom hack attempt to just kill the awful scrolling all together? That fix alone would be monumental to improving the game.

I think everyone really over-exaggerates the scrolling's impact on the game.

It's in what, 3 levels, for a little bit?  It doesn't cause slowdown, or have any impact on the gameplay.

lol

[TheClash603]

Whatever happened to the rom hack attempt to just kill the awful scrolling all together? That fix alone would be monumental to improving the game.

I think everyone really over-exaggerates the scrolling's impact on the game.

It's in what, 3 levels, for a little bit?  It doesn't cause slowdown, or have any impact on the gameplay.

lol

I agree.  I played through this game once and it is my only experience with the PC-E game, but I don't recall anything too awful while I played.

[TurboXray]

Whatever happened to the rom hack attempt to just kill the awful scrolling all together? That fix alone would be monumental to improving the game.

Too much else that I didn't like of the PCE game, that fixing the background wasn't enough for me. That's what happened. When you have super limited time, and there are a lot of things you want to do - some things have to get cut. I would have liked to have completed the hack, but the ratio of enjoyment/fulfillment to time spent from a limited pool, pretty much made it a no-go for me. Someone else is free to take up the task, though.

[schadenfreude]

Another note. Unlike the nes version, you can walljump continuously up onto a pillar and get on top, instead of having to jump back and forth between walls to get on top. Try it!

Really? I did this all the time in the NES version. One little "minigame" I liked to play was to ascend to the top of the wall after beating a boss before the score counter finished ticking and froze the screen. You can also do this against the first boss as a way to safely jump over him without taking damage.

[PukeSter]

Another note. Unlike the nes version, you can walljump continuously up onto a pillar and get on top, instead of having to jump back and forth between walls to get on top. Try it!

Really? I did this all the time in the NES version. One little "minigame" I liked to play was to ascend to the top of the wall after beating a boss before the score counter finished ticking and froze the screen. You can also do this against the first boss as a way to safely jump over him without taking damage.

I meant a standing pillar. Not a wall. As in physically getting up onto the edge of a pillar.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I could never get it to work.

[Michirin9801]

I meant a standing pillar. Not a wall. As in physically getting up onto the edge of a pillar.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I could never get it to work.

It's doable, but it's not easy...

[schadenfreude]

Yep, it works on all wall-like surfaces. And it's not easy, but it's satisfying to pull off!

[ToyMachine78]

Nes version for me again. Nes music is better, no flickering BG, and better controls on the NES. PCE controls seem stiff.

[NoSexGex]

Most of us likely played the NES port of Ninja Gaiden first (myself included). And because of its sufficient controls, that just became the norm for how a Ninja Gaiden game "should play". So when we play it on the PCE, instinct kicks in and we give it a biased opinion

[jperryss]

I meant a standing pillar. Not a wall. As in physically getting up onto the edge of a pillar.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I could never get it to work.

It's doable, but it's not easy...

I think Lukester is right. The pillars in NES NG1 do not have a top that you can stand on. Yes you can wall jump to the top and over to the other side, but you can't actually stand on top them.

[Magister]

Really? I did this all the time in the NES version. One little "minigame" I liked to play was to ascend to the top of the wall after beating a boss before the score counter finished ticking and froze the screen. You can also do this against the first boss as a way to safely jump over him without taking damage.

I think everybody did this.  To this day when I play the game I still do.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Really? I did this all the time in the NES version. One little "minigame" I liked to play was to ascend to the top of the wall after beating a boss before the score counter finished ticking and froze the screen. You can also do this against the first boss as a way to safely jump over him without taking damage.

I think everybody did this.  To this day when I play the game I still do.

it's like how everyone tried to catch the things in SMB3 when you beat the bosses, or the orbs in Castlevania.

"lets go for stupid freezeframes!"

[schadenfreude]

Ha, I'm glad I'm not the only one then. I also enjoyed doing a backflip in Rondo after killing a boss. Every freezeframe looked like Richter was practicing his high jump!

[schadenfreude]

I meant a standing pillar. Not a wall. As in physically getting up onto the edge of a pillar.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I could never get it to work.

It's doable, but it's not easy...

I think Lukester is right. The pillars in NES NG1 do not have a top that you can stand on. Yes you can wall jump to the top and over to the other side, but you can't actually stand on top them.

Hm, it's been a while since I've played it, but I'll whip them both out tonight  and give them a try. Is there an ideal pillar for a test?

[Magister]

Ha, I'm glad I'm not the only one then. I also enjoyed doing a backflip in Rondo after killing a boss. Every freezeframe looked like Richter was practicing his high jump!

I had the most fun with the freeze frame in Super Castlevania IV since you could pull off a lot more with the whip.

[schadenfreude]

All right gentlemen: shit has been whipped out, and test results are in.

In the first stage of both games, I can cling to the side of those red and white signs that have what looks like the "Coca Cola" logo on them and jump repeatedly to land on the top of them.

However, if you go to the end of the first section of 2-1, there's a pillar right before you ascend a ladder to the next area (to the left of Ryu here. In the PC Engine version, I could repeatedly wall jump on the right side of this pillar and ultimately land on top of it, but in the Famicom version, I just shoot up in the air, then fall back down and cling to the wall at the top. It's like there's an invisible wall that keeps you from jumping at the top of the pillar and landing on top of it. The tiny platform to the right of Ryu in that video exhibits the same behavior, though strangely in the PC Engine version, you can't cling to the side of it.

It's odd that in the Famicom version this sometimes works, like for the Coca Cola signs, but other times it doesn't. Anyway, my apologies to lukester for getting it wrong!

As for my opinion on these two games, what immediately disappointed me about the PC Engine version are the choppy parallax, the smaller sprites (making the game feel more zoomed out), and the soundtrack. But they're minor complaints, and the updated graphics might make up for it. I mean, just look at the bar scene in stage 1-2 of the Famicom version: hot pink floor tiles and wallpaper? 

[EmperorIng]

You seem to be missing the bad perspective and lower quality of the sprites in general on the PCE version. Note Ryu's height relative to poorly-placed tables in the bar itself. "Updated," lol. Ryu has been "downsized."

To say nothing of just bizarrely dumb choices, like changing the ruins you fight Malth into a construction zone... except for the top floor, which is still ruins. While a few backgrounds are improved, the game's inconsistencies and errors in the art style make it look like a rush job.

[schadenfreude]

I only played the first stage and a bit of the second stage, so take it as you will. "Updated" not "lol" — you have to admit the backgrounds look better; the original game looks pretty ass at times, like in the bar, as I said. Not so great for a Famicom game that came out at the end of 1988. And I did mention that his sprite is too small. Actually, the moment I booted up the game for the first time, it was the first thing I noticed that felt wrong to me.

[MisterCrash]

This thread inspired me to play the NES version last night. By sheer force of will, I was able to beat it for the second time in my life. It took about four hours, and probably 90 continues.

[schadenfreude]

1CC or it doesn't count.

[Keith Courage]

Now that I'm used to the colors of the pce version, the NES version just ends up looking really bad to me. It's like someone said. Hey, I have a great idea! Lets remove all the color.