SCD vs ACD comparisons

[exodus]

This is a pretty silly question I guess, but I've always been a bit uncertain about what is different when you've got an SCD/ACD compatible game. My assumption would be you've just got more ram to load things into, so loading speed is faster. But I've heard across the years people saying the game will actually access more frames from disc when there's an arcade card in.

I've searched for comparison videos, and can't find any. I searched the forums here, and there was a 3x3 eyes comparison which appears now to be offline.

Anyway - any actual definitive guide to this anywhere, or are others as in the dark as I am?
Thanks :3

[SignOfZeta]

It's completely up to the programmers. The 3x3 intro gets MASSIVELY upgraded if running the AC. The rest of the game seems the same. I never bothered to beat it and see if the ending is upgraded as well.

Flash Hiders, IIRC, has one character with an extra voice sample or something. I've never been able to figure out what Guliver Boy does.

This topic comes up once in a while, usually with a few comments like mine, and then dies out before a complete list of upgrades gets made. It could certainly be more well documented.

[exodus]

hmm, we should try to document this stuff. I do have a lot of these games myself, I'll try to do some checking around this week. It's crazy to have an entire extra character basically locked - sounds like some day-1 DLC action to me

[NecroPhile]

Most games just use the extra ram to cache stuff like battle menus and town shops so it doesn't have to reload them all the time.

[exodus]

yeah, that'd be my assumption - but then you hear things like what SoZ just said and it makes you wonder! There aren't that many, we should just document what we can.

[NecroPhile]

Unless you can peek in the code and find stuff quickly, it's an arduous task.  You'd have to play each game from beginning to end, log where and how long it loads each time, count animation frames, etc.

[exodus]

yeah - I'd certainly need help for something beyond the obvious! hopefully... someone will want to do that

[SignOfZeta]

hmm, we should try to document this stuff. I do have a lot of these games myself, I'll try to do some checking around this week. It's crazy to have an entire extra character basically locked - sounds like some day-1 DLC action to me

Not an extra character, there is a character that has one more vocal sample when using the AC. It may be a intro line, like "Ore no...kachi da!" or some such tough talk. I can't remember the details but I remember it was super unimpressive until I realized that the AC had been delayed so much that it wasn't even released by the time Flash Hiders came out so why would they bother with more?

[Gypsy]

Sounds like a cool but difficult endeavor. Good luck.

[BigusSchmuck]

I know that there are games out there that don't say they use the arcade card, but end up using it to speed up loading times. Wizardry 3 and 4 is one of them.

[SignOfZeta]

I think it may reduce the number of load times in 3x3 Eyes as well, I can't remember. Its too bad I don't care about that show, otherwise I probably would have memorized it like a bunch of other terrible anime games I bought.

[xcrement5x]

In Popful Mail for the PCE it reduces the loading times a bit, that's the only difference I remember.

[Digi.k]

In Popful Mail for the PCE it reduces the loading times a bit, that's the only difference I remember.

Definitely in the cut scenes and Brandish too

[SuperPlay]

I've searched for comparison videos, and can't find any. I searched the forums here, and there was a 3x3 eyes comparison which appears now to be offline.

The video when available was from https://superpcenginegrafx.net/  I am sure that this is CrackTiger's site.

I do have a rip of the video somewhere, I will take a look.

[seieienbu]

hmm, we should try to document this stuff. I do have a lot of these games myself, I'll try to do some checking around this week. It's crazy to have an entire extra character basically locked - sounds like some day-1 DLC action to me

Not an extra character, there is a character that has one more vocal sample when using the AC. It may be a intro line, like "Ore no...kachi da!" or some such tough talk. I can't remember the details but I remember it was super unimpressive until I realized that the AC had been delayed so much that it wasn't even released by the time Flash Hiders came out so why would they bother with more?

Flash Hiders doesn't even have the Arcade Card logo on the front and, if memory serves, it refers to the card in the manual only as the "18 meg card" or something along those lines.

[SuperPlay]

I have found a copy of the 3x3 eyes comparison video.  I have re-uploaded this to YouTube:

All credit for this video goes to:  https://superpcenginegrafx.net/

[gilbert]

Since this is brought up, maybe it's also a good idea to make another thread about differences in games that support both regular CD and Super CD (unless it was done already).
A quick list from this page and PCECP (the search function is a bit borked ATM):

Macross 2036
Ranma 1/2 Datou, Ganso Musabetsu Kakutou-ryuu!
Space Fantasy Zone (Proto)
Super Schwartzschild
Vanilla Syndrome
Naritore The Sugoroku '92 NARIAGARI TRENDY
Record of Lodoss Wars
Quiz Tono Sama no Yabou
Quiz Caravan Cult Q

I'm quite sure this game belongs here too, but not listed in both sites:
Cosmic Fantasy 3

The following two games are listed as such in PCECP, but I have doubt about it:
Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective Vol.2:
Has both icons on the box of the western release, but I think it's only regular CD like the 1st game, TTI probably did this to show that this game worked with both systems, so to promote the sales of the DUO. That Japanese page just outright listed it as SCD.
Syd Mead's Terra Forming:
Only labeled as SCD on the covers of both regions, not sure whether it plays runs on a regular system.

I think the differences are probably even less noticeable than SCD/ACD games though.

[gilbert]

Since this is brought up, maybe it's also a good idea to make another thread about differences in games that support both regular CD and Super CD (unless it was done already).
A quick list from this page and PCECP (the search function is a bit borked ATM):

Macross 2036
Ranma 1/2 Datou, Ganso Musabetsu Kakutou-ryuu!
Space Fantasy Zone (Proto)
Super Schwartzschild
Vanilla Syndrome
Naritore The Sugoroku '92 NARIAGARI TRENDY
Record of Lodoss Wars
Quiz Tono Sama no Yabou
Quiz Caravan Cult Q

I'm quite sure this game belongs here too, but not listed in both sites:
Cosmic Fantasy 3

The following two games are listed as such in PCECP, but I have doubt about it:
Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective Vol.2:
Has both icons on the box of the western release, but I think it's only regular CD like the 1st game, TTI probably did this to show that this game worked with both systems, so to promote the sales of the DUO. That Japanese page just outright listed it as SCD.
Syd Mead's Terra Forming:
Only labeled as SCD on the covers of both regions, not sure whether it plays runs on a regular system.

I think the differences are probably even less noticeable than SCD/ACD games though.

Edit: Opps! I meant to edit my post to fix minor stuff and ended up quoted the entire thing. Mods, please delete this.

[BigusSchmuck]

I have found a copy of the 3x3 eyes comparison video.  I have re-uploaded this to YouTube:

All credit for this video goes to:  https://superpcenginegrafx.net/

Not to derail this thread, does someone have a walkthrough on this game?

[SignOfZeta]

Walk-through: Its a digital comic. You click on everything over and over until you see the end credits.

[CrackTiger]

Most PCE digital adventure games I've played have puzzles or mazes or specific events that need to be triggered in places far apart.

There are some actual "digicomic" games that are more like a movie on autopilot, but they're not the ones English speakers usually talk about.

[exodus]

ah, good work!! I remember now that I watched this before, myself - interesting to see them side by side. i guess the most noticeable thing is the sound!

but yeah, I'm interested to know if there are CD/SCD differences too. I'm almost surprised someone hasn't gone through and compared yet! I kind of always suspected those CD/SCD games were really just CD games that they slapped the SCD logo on though.

[gilbert]

i guess the most noticeable thing is the sound!

I haven't (re)watched the comparison clip yet, but AFAIK (I immediately made the comparison once I bought the game BiTD), under SCD the opening movie was broken up into segments with disc accesses between these segments, and had ADPCM audio; whereas under ACD the whole movie was loaded into memory so there was no disc accesses in between, and that the audio was one long CDDA track. There were also some subtle enhancements like adding more animations (the one scene I remembered the most was that the handles inside the train were animated in ACD, but static in SCD). There may be more additional animations like this in game, but embarrassedly I never really played the game far to check it.

I think in Gulliver Boy, apart from having the data of more visited places residing in memory (before they're switched out to hold data of another place you just reach) it also enhanced  the HuVideo a bit. I think under SCD, there were small hiccups once a while during video playback, likely to seek for more data for streaming (or whatever), but under ACD the movies played smoother. The difference was subtle, and possibly just a placebo effect that I imagined was there though.

Edit:
Apart from this, a slightly related item was that Far East of Eden 1 was later re-released as SCD, and there were claims that the frequency required for disc accesses was reduced. I remember far far back when I didn't even have the system yet I've seen people playing this game (the original version, obviously as the SCD system wasn't even out yet) in department stores and the loadings were horrid. Later I got the re-released SCD version and the disc accesses were still horrible, like what I've seen from the original version. I didn't own the original version to make comparisons, but I always suspected the re-released version was just the same damn thing, with added codes so that it won't run on a regular CD system, so to encourage more people to upgrade.

[SignOfZeta]

Maybe the YouTube doesn't show it well but the graphical differences are absolutely crazy. Everything has so much more animation it borders on FMV (Gunbuster style). The audio is done in a completely different way. Who builds two engines for the same thing? These weirdos.

This is also why I suspect the ending is standard SCD stuff. It would have been too much work to keep that up.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Walk-through: Its a digital comic. You click on everything over and over until you see the end credits.

I bet you could print "book" versions of this walkthru.

Just change the cover to match the game, and put the same thing inside each one.

People are stupid enough to buy them if they look pretty on a shelf next to the game.


I GOT THE LIMITED RUN WALKTHRU OF SECRET OF BLUE WATER

*posts pics to facebook*

*probably never opens it and realizes its JUST CLICK ON EVERYTHING UNTIL YOU SEE END CREDITS in size 128 font spanning multiple pages*

[SignOfZeta]

Yeah, for every Snatcher there are two Gunbusters.

[turboswimbz]

LOL.

A Gunbuster walkthrough

Option 1, 2, 2, 3, 1, repeat 2 for boobs. never get to end credits.

[SignOfZeta]

I'm still waiting for part 3...

[turboswimbz]

I'm still waiting for part 3...

Me too.  I actually don't hate the comics as is.

[wolfman]

I always use the ACD Pro when I play games containing "multimedia/video" sequences, as it puts less strain on my CDROM2, and the gameplay gets less interrupted.

[CrackTiger]

I always use the ACD Pro when I play games containing "multimedia/video" sequences, as it puts less strain on my CDROM2, and the gameplay gets less interrupted.

ACD mode can put more strain on your CD-ROM as cases like 3x3 Eyes increase overall load times/interuption, because more content is being loaded.

[SignOfZeta]

I always use the ACD Pro when I play games containing "multimedia/video" sequences, as it puts less strain on my CDROM2, and the gameplay gets less interrupted.

Ha ha! What?

[wolfman]

I always use the ACD Pro when I play games containing "multimedia/video" sequences, as it puts less strain on my CDROM2, and the gameplay gets less interrupted.

ACD mode can put more strain on your CD-ROM as cases like 3x3 Eyes increase overall load times/interuption, because more content is being loaded.

Please let us know why you think it is that way. I experience less loading when I use the ACD, therefore less strain.

The more often a drive has to seek and move to certain parts of the disc, the more strain is put on it than if it was just playing music.

[NecroPhile]

In the case of 3x3 Eyes, it doesn't use the Arcade Card to cache data that it'd otherwise have to reload.  It uses the extra space to show more assets that never get loaded with a Super CD system card.

In any case, an Arcade Card isn't going to help in every game with multimedia/video sequences.  There's a handful of games that can use the Arcade Card to cache data it'd otherwise have to reload, but they have to be specifically programmed to do it; the vast majority of games are not thus programmed, consequently loading exactly the same with an Arcade Card as they do with the CD or Super CD system card they were designed for.

[SignOfZeta]

There are almost no SCD games that work differently with an ACD installed. Even fewer of these work to cache assets in the way you are describing. Maybe two? I don't know if I have any. 3x3 Eyes, if anything, is putting more work on the CDROM with its eternal mega loads that take longer than any 10 SCD games combined to complete.

You're thinking of PCs, not consoles. 8 bit games are dumb and always assume the exact same amount of RAM is available, ignoring anything else, unless specifically programmed to take advantage of it. You may as well have Bonk in the slot.

[CrackTiger]

I always use the ACD Pro when I play games containing "multimedia/video" sequences, as it puts less strain on my CDROM2, and the gameplay gets less interrupted.

ACD mode can put more strain on your CD-ROM as cases like 3x3 Eyes increase overall load times/interuption, because more content is being loaded.

Please let us know why you think it is that way. I experience less loading when I use the ACD, therefore less strain.

The more often a drive has to seek and move to certain parts of the disc, the more strain is put on it than if it was just playing music.

Necro explained it, but you see for yourself in this video:

[ClodBusted]

I don't play my Duo anymore for the fear of putting strain on the CD-ROM drive.

Oh wait, that's not the exact reason. Now where did I misplace the darned power supply, so I could begin troubleshooting why the console broke down...

By the way guys, please keep those SCD/ACD comparisons coming.