PCE latecomers

[VestCunt]

I forget what topic it was in, but somebody recently posted a list of all the posthumously released PCE games from 95-99.  Could somebody link to the thread again or repost the list?  Also, where did the list come from?  I'm curious because there were games on there that aren't listed at pcecp.com (like Quest of Jongmaster and Dead of the Brain).  Why aren't these games listed at pcecp?

[PC Gaijin]

Quest of Jongmaster is listed as Jong Shin Densetsu. Dead of the Brain is listed as...Dead of the Brain 1 & 2. They're both there.

[VestCunt]

Quest of Jongmaster is listed as Jong Shin Densetsu. Dead of the Brain is listed as...Dead of the Brain 1 & 2. They're both there.

Sure nuff, there Quest of Jongmaster is.  Thanks.

However, I did a search for Dead of the Brain 2 weeks ago and I swear to god it was no where on that site....but, I guess it is now.

At any rate, some one did post a sweet list of all those final games complete with the date, or at least the year, they were released.  Anyone remember what I'm talking about?

[SignOfZeta]

I remember that thread, but I don't remember enough about it to tell you how to find it.

I'm curious as to why you say, "posthumously". The original thread had something to do with games released post-Sapphire, but is there some sort of of official "death of the PCE" date that I don't know about?

[VestCunt]

I remember that thread, but I don't remember enough about it to tell you how to find it.

I'm curious as to why you say, "posthumously". The original thread had something to do with games released post-Sapphire, but is there some sort of of official "death of the PCE" date that I don't know about?

Hell yeah!  The TG16 and a posse of TurboBoosters kicked the PCE's ass and gave it a curbie back in '95.  What rock have you been under?


I don't know, I just thought it was...you know, dead.

[Kaminari]

You could say the PC Engine "officially" died in December 1995, after Hudson released their last game for the system (Seiya Monogatari).

[SignOfZeta]

Nah, not when NEC of all people eventually released the last game.

To me, personally, a system is dead when the last officially licensed piece of software is released. The Neo finally died with...SamSho5 Special (or whatever it was), the PCE died with Dead of the Brain, the Dreamcast seems to have died with Under Defeat, but you can never be certain when a game is in fact "the last game" (see: the last 10 DC releases).

Of course this theory gets a bit hazy when you consider machines that weren't %100 dependent on official releases in this first place. Is the MSX dead? The 2600? The NES certainly is. Very fuzzy.

[CrackTiger]

Nah, not when NEC of all people eventually released the last game.

To me, personally, a system is dead when the last officially licensed piece of software is released. The Neo finally died with...SamSho5 Special (or whatever it was), the PCE died with Dead of the Brain, the Dreamcast seems to have died with Under Defeat, but you can never be certain when a game is in fact "the last game" (see: the last 10 DC releases).

Of course this theory gets a bit hazy when you consider machines that weren't %100 dependent on official releases in this first place. Is the MSX dead? The 2600? The NES certainly is. Very fuzzy.

So all the PCE needs to reclaim the longest running console crown is to have another 'officially' release game?

[Kaminari]

Very fuzzy.

That's a way of putting things. Personally, I don't consider "NEC" (NEC HE, NEC Avenue, Hunex, InterChannel) to be the reference developer of the PCE. It never was. And when the genuine designer of the system (Hudson) decides that it's time to call it quits, you know the "official" time of decease has been pronounced. In my book, that was eleven years ago.

[GUTS]

I have to agree with Zeta on this one, the official death of a system is when the last "Official" piece of software is released.  No homebrew or self published shit, it has to be an officially licensed game.

[Keranu]

I also go by the last "official" software released, but I fully support homebrew and am glad to see consoles still living because of it.

[Odonadon]

The system is dead when the manufacturer is no longer producing new units.  Discontinued = dead.

However, thanks to homebrew and whatnot, gaming on the system will live on.

OD

[SignOfZeta]

The system is dead when the manufacturer is no longer producing new units.  Discontinued = dead.

However, thanks to homebrew and whatnot, gaming on the system will live on.

OD

First of all, those two sentences contradict each other. Secondly, I disagree with the first sentence. That would have placed the death of the Neo Geo quite a bit earlier. Probably around 1997 or so. I can't remember when they actually stopped making AES units but it was at least five years before the final game was released.

[OldRover]

What a pathetic way to go out though...SS5 was the worst SS game ever made, toppling even SS3 in terms of raw suckage. But then again, everything with the Eolith or Playmore label on it was pretty much guaranteed to suck anyways...

[GUTS]

What was wrong with the last Samurai game?  I thought 5 Special or Zero or whatever they called it was awesome, I mean the game was feeling quite dated by then but I didnt notice anything about it that made it worse than than the others.

[SignOfZeta]

What a pathetic way to go out though...SS5 was the worst SS game ever made, toppling even SS3 in terms of raw suckage. But then again, everything with the Eolith or Playmore label on it was pretty much guaranteed to suck anyways...

I disagree. KOF2002, and 2003 were really good, IMO. I didn't exactly fall in love with the later SS games, but they were OK. I actually kind of liked SS3 too. I'm not a huge SS fan anyway though.

[Odonadon]

The system is dead when the manufacturer is no longer producing new units.  Discontinued = dead.

However, thanks to homebrew and whatnot, gaming on the system will live on.

OD

First of all, those two sentences contradict each other. Secondly, I disagree with the first sentence. That would have placed the death of the Neo Geo quite a bit earlier. Probably around 1997 or so. I can't remember when they actually stopped making AES units but it was at least five years before the final game was released.

How do they contradict each other?  The system is dead, but gaming on the system lives on.  Two distinct things. 

And you're absolutely right - the Neo Geo died around 97.  Just because someone is still producing games for it, don't mean it's not dead   Don't forget a Neo Geo game (Last Hope) was released just this year - by your logic the Neo Geo has yet to die.  Last Hope is also coming out for the Dreamcast - yet another dead system.  There are a number of systems that people will say "died a quick death", yet games are still being produced.  Hell, NES and 2600 games are still being made and I think we can ALL agree they died a long long time ago

Also keep in mind we are arguing semantics, but the point remains.  Nothing is stopping Joe Blow from making a Virtual Boy game, but again, dead system.

OD

[SignOfZeta]

And you're absolutely right - the Neo Geo died around 97.  Just because someone is still producing games for it, don't mean it's not dead  

That's a pretty off the wall description of "dead". Its like you just picked criteria out of a hat. In 1997 my firends and I were still playing new Neo Geo games on CD and cart. Neo Geo Freak was still being published. We didn't even know or care than the AES was out of production. The system was very much still alive. In fact, many of its best games were yet to come.

Don't forget a Neo Geo game (Last Hope) was released just this year - by your logic the Neo Geo has yet to die. 

No, by my logic, which is stated above, only continued official releases mean that the system is still alive. Last Hope is not an official release on AES, Neo CD, or DC.

Alive=official support
Dead=anything else (this can still be fun times of course)

[Odonadon]

And you're absolutely right - the Neo Geo died around 97.  Just because someone is still producing games for it, don't mean it's not dead  

That's a pretty off the wall description of "dead". Its like you just picked criteria out of a hat. In 1997 my firends and I were still playing new Neo Geo games on CD and cart. Neo Geo Freak was still being published. We didn't even know or care than the AES was out of production. The system was very much still alive. In fact, many of its best games were yet to come.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here.  I'd hardly call my description of dead "off the wall".  I was actually quite surprised to hear that the Neo Geo was still being produced up until '97 - I thought it died long before that.  Again, if the system is no longer being produced, it's dead.  Just like any line or model of PDA, computer, TV, DVD player, etc. You name it. 

Don't forget a Neo Geo game (Last Hope) was released just this year - by your logic the Neo Geo has yet to die.

No, by my logic, which is stated above, only continued official releases mean that the system is still alive. Last Hope is not an official release on AES, Neo CD, or DC.

Alive=official support
Dead=anything else (this can still be fun times of course)

I wasn't aware that Last Hope wasn't a licensed release (shows you how much I keep up with Neo Geo).  Now tell me, where did that definition come from?  Now who's picking from hats   Does this definition only apply to the video game world?  I would say it applies to any sort of media player.  When did the 8-track die?

OD

[esteban]

When did the 8-track die?

OD

Tangent: For me, 8-track died (literally) when the players in my own stereo receiver and my parents' car broke within 2-3 months of each other. This occurred in the early 90's.

It was as if the cosmos was telling me that I had to settle for AM / FM radio! I'm not kidding! That's how I felt.

You may now resume your discussion.

[Keranu]

Haha, Steve rules.

[SignOfZeta]

I wasn't aware that Last Hope wasn't a licensed release (shows you how much I keep up with Neo Geo).  Now tell me, where did that definition come from?  Now who's picking from hats   Does this definition only apply to the video game world?  I would say it applies to any sort of media player.  When did the 8-track die?

Do you understand how software licensing works for consoles? 8 track tapes never required a license, and this analogy shows how much you miss the point.

[OldRover]

I disagree. KOF2002, and 2003 were really good, IMO. I didn't exactly fall in love with the later SS games, but they were OK. I actually kind of liked SS3 too. I'm not a huge SS fan anyway though.

Well, it comes down to personal opinion anyways so no big whoop. I found 2003 to be marginally better than 2001, but if I remember correctly, it was just another "hey we don't have a storyline, so let's bring back our gimp final boss Rugal and see how much coin we can garner" yawnfest. Or was that 2002? I forget...it was one of the two. See how uninteresting they were? And I was a huge KOF fan up till 2000.

As for the 8-track vs console comparison...I've yet to see a console use 8-track tapes, so the comparison of two wholly different industries is kinda silly...

[Seldane]

I think any system with five supporters is dead. Like the Neo Geo. It doesn't matter how old/new it is.

[Keranu]

Well, it comes down to personal opinion anyways so no big whoop. I found 2003 to be marginally better than 2001, but if I remember correctly, it was just another "hey we don't have a storyline, so let's bring back our gimp final boss Rugal and see how much coin we can garner" yawnfest. Or was that 2002? I forget...it was one of the two. See how uninteresting they were? And I was a huge KOF fan up till 2000.

KoF'2002 was the second dream match game. I really need to play that game more because my KoF buddy insists that it's even better than '98 gameplay mechanic wise. I don't know if I can believe that myself since I pretty much think '98 has perfect gameplay.

[_Paul]

I think any system with five supporters is dead. Like the Neo Geo. It doesn't matter how old/new it is.

THE BINATONE HOME GAMES SYSTEM LIVES DAMN YOU!!!

[OldRover]

KoF'2002 was the second dream match game. I really need to play that game more because my KoF buddy insists that it's even better than '98 gameplay mechanic wise. I don't know if I can believe that myself since I pretty much think '98 has perfect gameplay.

Must be 2002 that ends with Rugal (again) then. Whichever one it is, it blows hardcore. The gameplay was quite the suck (very broken controls), the AI was completely broken (ooh how shocking! this is the case in ALL Playmore and Eolith abominations), and frankly, the graphics sucked ass compared to 98. 96 thru 2000 remain the only KOF games worth playing...94 and 95 were way too primitive, and 2001-on were just plain trash. I'm glad the series was essentially retired...it couldn't have gotten much worse, and was dragged thru the mud long enough by incompetant coin-hunters.

[SignOfZeta]

Must be 2002 that ends with Rugal (again) then. Whichever one it is, it blows hardcore. The gameplay was quite the suck (very broken controls), the AI was completely broken (ooh how shocking! this is the case in ALL Playmore and Eolith abominations), and frankly, the graphics sucked ass compared to 98. 96 thru 2000 remain the only KOF games worth playing...94 and 95 were way too primitive, and 2001-on were just plain trash. I'm glad the series was essentially retired...it couldn't have gotten much worse, and was dragged thru the mud long enough by incompetant coin-hunters.

Hmm...wow, you're on a different wavelength from me for sure. In addition of loving 2003, I also really got into 2002. Yes, the story wasn't there, but if you play fighting games for a story you need to...try something else. Gameplay was very similar to 2000, which is fucking awesome. "Broken" describes every KOF ever made if you are refering to glitches and stuff. KOF 98, the Empire Strikes Back of SNK, was broken and glitchy as hell, but its still the most loved. I think people are just jaded, and are more happy adopting a "it all sucks" attitude than they would be trying to enjoy a series they grew tired of.

I do hate 2001 though, very much.

Now, as for things that aren't a matter of opinion; KOF being "essentially retired". That's just not true. KOFXI was released not too long ago, and its very much a real KOF. Also there are the MI games, although I'm not going to pretend that I don't hate them, they are a continuation of the series.

[CrackTiger]

And you're absolutely right - the Neo Geo died around 97.  Just because someone is still producing games for it, don't mean it's not dead  

That's a pretty off the wall description of "dead". Its like you just picked criteria out of a hat. In 1997 my firends and I were still playing new Neo Geo games on CD and cart. Neo Geo Freak was still being published. We didn't even know or care than the AES was out of production. The system was very much still alive. In fact, many of its best games were yet to come.

I'm still playing PCE games. New titles are still being published and classics are still for sale via the Wii. I know but don't care that the original hardware is out of production. The system is very much still alive for me. In fact, some of its best games are yet to come. 

[SignOfZeta]

In fact, some of its best games are yet to come. 

Hm...I think that's being quite optimistic. I don't know if KOF98-quality games are going to be made for PCE, at least not until some really killer dev tools are made, and even then it seems unlikely. I have't seen anything homebrew for PCE that was even as good as...like...Bonk, and that's not asking much.

[OldRover]

Yes, the story wasn't there, but if you play fighting games for a story you need to...try something else.

Part of the charm of KOF for me was the developing storyline through the years. I was disappointed in the lack of a storyline in KOF '98, which is why it's my least favourite amongst the 96-2000 era. I'm the kind of gamer who likes a bit of substance beyond the typical button-mashing mayhem...even if it's a half-hearted attempt at a story, it's better than NO story at all. The KOF storyline may not have been the greatest thing, but at least it was relatively interesting...it really died at 2001 (the story got pathetic) and just decayed from there.

Now, as for things that aren't a matter of opinion; KOF being "essentially retired". That's just not true. KOFXI was released not too long ago, and its very much a real KOF. Also there are the MI games, although I'm not going to pretend that I don't hate them, they are a continuation of the series.

The yearly KOF numbering has ended, and that's the "true" KOF series. Anything else just isn't the same.

Hm...I think that's being quite optimistic. I don't know if KOF98-quality games are going to be made for PCE, at least not until some really killer dev tools are made, and even then it seems unlikely. I have't seen anything homebrew for PCE that was even as good as...like...Bonk, and that's not asking much.

Look out for new releases by MindRec and Frozen Utopia very very soon. Also, it'd help to not use the phrase "homebrew"...it makes it sound like the game should be stuffed in with a pot of coffee. The word "independant" sounds a lot better.

[Odonadon]

Do you understand how software licensing works for consoles? 8 track tapes never required a license, and this analogy shows how much you miss the point.

Oh boy, I think you better give this a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8-track_cartridge .  8 track cartridges, and many MANY other forms of media, are patented, and you sure as hell need a license/permission to manufacture an 8-track cart   Maybe think of it this way - my '78 Pontiac Firebird is in perfect condition, it requires a license in the form of registration.  However, the 78 line of Firebirds is long since dead, in fact Firebirds aren't being made any more period.  Can I still drive my car?  Yep.  Is it's particular model dead?  Yep.  I think you will need to better point out the distinctions before I can agree.  The video game world doesn't differ much from the rest of the world.  I think if you ask any person that isn't a video game freak like we are if the Neo Geo (if they've even heard of it) died a while back they will agree with me.

I'm still playing PCE games. New titles are still being published and classics are still for sale via the Wii. I know but don't care that the original hardware is out of production. The system is very much still alive for me. In fact, some of its best games are yet to come.

You are talking about the games.  Playing a PCE game on the Wii does not mean the system is still alive   The gaming community for the system, and the games themselves are eternal.  The system died a while ago.

OD

[Seldane]

In fact, some of its best games are yet to come. 

Hm...I think that's being quite optimistic. I don't know if KOF98-quality games are going to be made for PCE, at least not until some really killer dev tools are made, and even then it seems unlikely. I have't seen anything homebrew for PCE that was even as good as...like...Bonk, and that's not asking much.

Ever heard of "Neutopia III"? Yeah, it'll rock your socks! 

[SignOfZeta]

Oh boy, I think you better give this a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8-track_cartridge .  8 track cartridges, and many MANY other forms of media, are patented, and you sure as hell need a license/permission to manufacture an 8-track cart  

Um...not the same thing. Lets use a more modern example, the Compact Disc. If I want to record an album and sell it on CD this is no problem. I just put it on a CD-R and sell it that way, or I can send the CD-R to a reproduction facility and they can stamp out some fancy pro stuff. If this is done with some places they can even slap a SKU on it and sell it on Amazon, or Lulu, or where ever. Is there a license process in this scheme? Well, yeah, but its not like making a console game. The patent process in situations like this is taken care of by the makers of blank media, the burners, the presses, etc. As a recording artist I wouldn't have to (knowingly) pay a license fee, or get anything authorized from anyone.

Contrast this to the console world. If I want to make and sell a GBA game in a store, on a cart, its either official, or its unlicensed. Those are the choices. Selling an unlicensed GBA game in the US would be pretty much legal thanks to customer protection lawsuits against Nintendo that date back decades. I don't think the DMCA applies to GBA games, but I'm not sure. However you might get into trouble in Europe, or Japan selling unlicensed software. Now, if If I wanted the game to bear the Nintendo Seal of Quality (or whatever it is) then I'd need to send the complete software to Nintendo in order to pass their judgement. If it was a pornographic game, or something that pisses of too many religious groups, or has other copyrighted materials, or it talks smack about Nintendo, or is annoying to someone there in some other way, it would never be honored a license. It would also need an ESRB rating for the US, a CERO rating for Japan, whatever the UK, and EU use, etc. Nintendo would also, obviously, want money and there is a good chance they would be the one manufacturing the carts, or arranging it anyway. Not only that, but as a GBA publisher I would probably have already payed for a GBA dev kit (although that's not really necessary nowadays). In the end this license would get me the right to use the official GBA packaging (with the logos, etc), and major stores would be much more likely to stock the title.

If you want to make, say, a Windows game then the only license you'd be paying would probably be the ones built into a CD scheme, or maybe various APIs, graphic engines etc you might elect to use. Its much more free. In fact if you avoided Direct X, etc, and made it download-only you'd be paying no fees to anyone. With dead systems the license system is either open (like with the Jaguar) or just ignored because nobody gives a shit anymore (like NEC).

This is the difference between Last Hope, and SS5Special. The last official game for PCE was Dead of the Brain 1&2. Anything since then has skipped all that crap I just mentioned. Of course NEC could always crank out some copies of Sapphire and then that reprint would be the last official game. This keeps happening with the PS1. Most recently with King's Field.

So while there are issues with stuff like 8-track, CD, etc they are actually pretty minimal, and usually so transparent that the fees are payed without the artist even knowing it. With a console though...someone is going to want a check. With a game like Metal Gear Solid, I wouldn't be surprised if the license fees added up to tens of millions dollars over the years.

Maybe think of it this way - my '78 Pontiac Firebird is in perfect condition, it requires a license in the form of registration.  However, the 78 line of Firebirds is long since dead, in fact Firebirds aren't being made any more period.  Can I still drive my car?  Yep.  Is it's particular model dead?  Yep.  I think you will need to better point out the distinctions before I can agree.  The video game world doesn't differ much from the rest of the world. 

OK, that's just totally off base. The license and registration for your car are granted by the state. You don't pay any fee to GM to own or operate the car. It might be different if you were talking about making parts for the car, but actually GM doesn't care about that either. For example, you can perform modifications (to boost the 78's amazingly low stock horsepower) and then sell it to someone else at a profit. This is something you can't do with licensed software (excepting open source, or Creative Commons).Hot Wheels pays a fee to manufacture metal miniatures of it though. Likewise if you bought a shirt that said, "Firebirds Rule!!!" and it used the Firebird logo, Walmart or whoever would have to pay a fee for that. The state on the other hand is really just charging you a use tax. They also want a use tax for dogs, but the original creator (God, in this case) doesn't mail you the license, get any of the money, or have any say in the process. Now there are patent fees all over a Firebird (from things on it they didn't invent or build, like the carborator, probably), but GM payed all those and passed them onto the original purchaser of the car.

I think if you ask any person that isn't a video game freak like we are if the Neo Geo (if they've even heard of it) died a while back they will agree with me.

Yeah but, what does that prove? They probably think vinyl records are dead too, but its actually a (amazingly) still $100 million a year industry. The opinion of the average guy isn't worth much. The average guy thinks that the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqis, that microwaves cook things from the inside out, that downloadable ring tones are worth $2.50...do you know how many people don't realize that the earth travels around the sun, and not the other way around? I'm not talking about crazy people, or the mentally retarded, "I'm talking about fuckers with jobs". Seriously, fuck the average guy. He's an idiot, he knows it, and he likes it that way. He's not part of this conversation.

[esteban]

This is turning out to be a far more entertaining topic than I thought it would be. Lots of peace, love and harmony.

[OldRover]

Nintendo would also, obviously, want money and there is a good chance they would be the one manufacturing the carts, or arranging it anyway.

Just thought I'd comment on this particular sentence...Nintendo does control the manufacture of ALL licensed media without exception. So you're right on this point. You have to pay for the manufacture of the media though, and you have to have your own lines of distribution, as they don't handle this for you.

[Odonadon]

K, well I'm not going to reply to that entire post, but I will do a quick summary.  I'd like to know who dictated the official definition of when a system is dead?  Who decided it was when the last licensed game is produced?  You?  My point exactly.    Regardless of the way licensing works for the system, there are similarities all around in that you can't do whatever you want to do, whenever you want to.  You need permission to drive the '78 Firebird, regardless of who grants that permission.  So you are saying that  a game system is defined when the last licensed game is developed.  It's a tad out of left field and kind of a "it's this way because I say it is" answer.  Granted, so is my side of this argument   I do not see how deeming a system dead when production stops is any less of a valid reason than yours   Mine just makes WAY more sense to me.  The '78 Firebird had a limited production run, just like any video game system.  It "lived" and "died", just like any video game system.  Permission to use/drive/own it or legally make after market parts for it is irrelevant. 

The compact disc is also not the same thing, as the average consumer can go buy one and legally put whatever they want on it, and in some cases legally distribute it.  You aren't manufacturing the CD-R yourself.  If you were to make an 8-track cart today, you would likely have to produce the cart yourself (unless someone is still involved in this lucrative business )  You can still do it, and legally too, but that doesn't change the fact that 8-tracks died a long time ago   Don't know about anyone else, but I'd still consider the 8-track dead even if Julio Iglasias decided to put his next album out on it.

Yeah but, what does that prove? They probably think vinyl records are dead too, but its actually a (amazingly) still $100 million a year industry. The opinion of the average guy isn't worth much. The average guy thinks that the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqis, that microwaves cook things from the inside out, that downloadable ring tones are worth $2.50...do you know how many people don't realize that the earth travels around the sun, and not the other way around? I'm not talking about crazy people, or the mentally retarded, "I'm talking about fuckers with jobs". Seriously, fuck the average guy. He's an idiot, he knows it, and he likes it that way. He's not part of this conversation.

The world is all about averages - the Average Joe is king.  The average Joe is a moron, I'll give you that, but he decides what is society, ie the world.  His opinion matters whether it's right or wrong.  If 95% of average people believe Mission Impossible 2 is better than Mission Impossible 3, well that can't be ignored - it's a very important statement.  Dismissing "his" opinion is foolish.  Besides, they are still producing Vinyl record players, so the medium is definitely not dead.

At any rate, this is an argument that probably won't ever be resolved.  As far as I am concerned, the PC Engine, Neo Geo, NES, etc.  died a long time ago.  Does that mean we can't enjoy it anymore, or dedicate entire websites to it?  Of course not.  Can a company still make money off selling games for a system that is no longer in production - of course.  Does stopping production of that system indicate an imminent death of that system?  You bet - it gets taken off life support.

OD

[TurboXray]

So If I were to acquire a license from Hudson(US or JP) to produce a PCE CD, then the system would be considered officially alive or is there a grace period that negates this?

 All this arguing is pointless. You believe one of two things: last licensed software to come out is the official end date for a console, or the last unofficial or unlicensed title to come out. I believe in the later and personally don't care if someone disagrees.

[_Paul]

It would be interesting to have a list from all the contributors in this thread as to which machines they believe are 'alive and 'dead'. You'd probably find you all agree with each other.

[GUTS]

So If I were to acquire a license from Hudson(US or JP) to produce a PCE CD, then the system would be considered officially alive or is there a grace period that negates this?

I don't think that would be possible anymore, but that would rule if you could.

[Odonadon]

It would be interesting to have a list from all the contributors in this thread as to which machines they believe are 'alive and 'dead'. You'd probably find you all agree with each other.

The argument is more about 'when' the systems died, not if they are dead   Our opinions likely won't change, so I don't think I will continue this argument, especially considering this is the WRONG TOPIC

OD