PC Engine AV Mod

[PCEngineHell]

Actually the only thing that the Dreamcast shares with normal VGA is the res of 640x480,and the hardware was capable of producing a higher res,but that option was never used. The color depth far exceeds the old VGA standard,and the old VGA hardware standard was able to produce 704×528, 736×552, 768×576, and 800×600 at 16 colors.

When Super VGA was created the call was for 800x600 to be used more commonly. At the time they were not getting into 800x600 on VGA much,it was rarely done and at 16 colors, not very useful. However,SuperVGA can go back to 640x480. 640x480 on Dreamcast still uses SuperVGA color,along with the other aspects needed like the ability to double buffer at a color depth of 16-bit-32-bit. VGA high color depth is only 256 colors. I know,it must have slipped past you,but Power VR is a Super VGA hardware technology.


256 KiB ram was the limit for VGA. The most typically standard graphics modes used in VGA are 640x480 in 16 colors, 640x350 in 16 colors,  320x200 in 16 colors,320x200 in 256 colors (Mode 13h) with typical res modes used for games like 320x400 double res,320x240 square pixel, and 360x480. I remember ColoRIX allowing you to do higher res while using 256 colors,but it would eat up all the available 256 kib ram fast and was not usable with games really.

As for Dscaler,yea,I have seen it used,and I think its good software tool,but I think its laughable at best that you are running a bunch of old game systems into a computer via capture card,and are having to use a software program to try to get your image to resemble the original look that a good $150-200 dollar Tv is going to give you anyway for your old game systems,but its not. A better solution would be to just use a good tv. Also,the color depth for the Dreamcast is much better on a computer monitor then a standard tv. SDTV dumbs it down somewhat in S-video.

I don't really care what you meant either way,you really do not know what your talking about,that much is apparent with your looping double backing post,and you think your going to win your retarded arguments here with people who do know,by using your poor wikipedia reference material and the point you keep making about how leet you are cause your using your computer and Dscaler to TRY to do what a normal tv WILL do for you instead. No matter how many times you post your same stupid mis informed info Joe nor I are going to agree with you,nor about anyone else here I gather. Infact,we are all laughing at you right now,laughing at you,laughing at you,laughing at you,laughing at you......

Lesson for the children

/busterdfo6.png

[PCEngineHell]

Sorry Keranu, no RF picture. 

Thats cool,I included one for Keranu

/staticof9.jpg

[Buster D]

As for Dscaler,yea,I have seen it used,and I think its good software tool,but I think its laughable at best that you are running a bunch of old game systems
into a computer via capture card

Why, specifically? What technical reason is there other than the color quality difference?

,and are having to use a software program to try to get your image to resemble the original look that a good $150-200 dollar Tv is going to give you anyway for your old game systems,but its not. A better solution would be to just use a good tv.

I like the monitor and setup I have, and I don't want to search around for a RGB-capable monitor (or CRT TV with component input and a transcoder) that's still in pristine condition like my Mitsubishi Diamondtron.  And while I don't hate scanlines, I prefer not having them.

the point you keep making about how leet you are cause your using your computer and Dscaler to TRY to do what a normal tv WILL do for you instead.

Are you saying that DScaler is not in fact taking the 240 lines from each 480i field and displaying them as a 240p frame? 

Lesson for the children

Yeah, whatever.  Feel free to continue the flames, but if you have any technical evidence as to why DScaler sucks so bad for gaming, I'll be around.

[Joe Redifer]

Are you saying that DScaler is not in fact taking the 240 lines from each 480i field and displaying them as a 240p frame? 

That's right.  It's upscaling it to whatever resolution your monitor is set at.  Only really really old monitors can go down to a resolution of 240p.  What is that, a 15khz sync?  If I had a monitor that could do that, I'd just connect it with pure RGB straight from my consoles to rock my world.

[Buster D]

Yes, it's upscaling it, but not from 480i.  When in Old Game mode it takes the 240 lines from each 480i field to make a 240p image and THEN resizes it to my monitor.

[PCEngineHell]

Joe,there is not any point in arguing with this guy. After hinting that where he is located at it must be impossible to locate a CRT SDTV or SCART TV in new or good condition,possibly because he lives with the moles in a dark hole,he just clearly stated he hates normal tvs,scanlines,ect ect..and the way the stuff is intended to look and run is on normal tvs.

He thinks his computer + Dscaler is Jesus and his word of it gospel. He honestly believes in everything he is saying,even if wrong,and you will never convince him to think otherwise. He is rich in stupidity on this subject,he already proved that much. Dscaler is not solely meant so you can stop using a normal tv,its to try to help clean up the process of using SDTV items on a capture card for your computer for when you need to use it. Its not the end all solution,nor a perfect replacement,nor able to 100 percent replicate the feel or look of a great quality SDTV in S-video or Component,or even composite really.

What is that, a 15khz sync?

Yea,I do believe that is what old computer monitors that used typical anolog RGB signal use. C64/128,Atari ST,and old Amiga monitors,and some of the really old VGA monitors could be used if you made a special connector.

[Buster D]

Joe,there is not any point in arguing with this guy. He just clearly stated he hates normal tvs,scanlines,ect ect..and the way the stuff is intended to look and run is on normal tvs. He thinks his computer + Dscaler is Jesus and his word of it gospel. He honestly believes in everything he is saying,even if wrong,and you will never convince him to think otherwise. He is rich in stupidity on this subject,he already proved that much.

Yeah, I hate scanlines.  That's why I said the exact opposite in my previous post.

Look, I'd be perfectly willing to accept that my setup sucks if you showed me something that proves DScaler isn't doing what I say it's doing, but so far you haven't. 

I feel like I'm reading the GameFaqs boards here...

[PCEngineHell]

I like the monitor and setup I have, and I don't want to search around for a RGB-capable monitor (or CRT TV with component input and a transcoder) that's still in pristine condition like my Mitsubishi Diamondtron.  And while I don't hate scanlines, I prefer not having them.

By saying you prefer to not have them there its evident they bother you deeply,that and your attitude about this subject makes it very apparent. They repulse you. Thats the only reason you would be compelled to run your old game systems into a computer and use software to attempt to fix the image so you can play on a VGA monitor. Hell your whole attitude about it all,including your willingness to continue your dumb error filled arguement about this subject shows you oozing with contempt for SDTV.

As for your method,what proof would you need???? All you have to do is run a system into a good tv side by side with the setup your using and Dscaler running your image and you could clearly tell that your choice is a poor method compared to just using a great normal SDTV.

Clearly if you carried this conversation to other older game system forums others would tell you this also, The mass is not going to agree with you. Your method is not as good,does not look as good,is bulky and not viable. As for flaming,I think we were all here before you,and your arguing with us,are you not?

[Buster D]

I like the monitor and setup I have, and I don't want to search around for a RGB-capable monitor (or CRT TV with component input and a transcoder) that's still in pristine condition like my Mitsubishi Diamondtron.  And while I don't hate scanlines, I prefer not having them.

I'm willing to have them if it significantly increases the quality in other areas, but the small increase in color quality RGB cables provide isn't enough for me to get another setup.

[Joe Redifer]

OK do this.  Take a picture or two of a game running on the TurboGrafx or Genesis (not a screen capture, do like I did with a digital camera).  It can be a game of your choice (except Sonic 2).  Take kind of a close-up picture like I did on the last page.  Post it/them here.  I won't compare it to my component setup, but I will compare it to S-video on an SDTV.

[PCEngineHell]

I feel like I'm reading the GameFaqs boards here...

What happened,did you try to carry this argument over at Gamefaqs and they chased your dumbass away from there too??? Did you just think to yourself " Oh well, I bet over at PcEngineFX my arguement about my ultra leet method of running my MegaDrive on  my computer with Dscaler to my whopping huge 19 inch VGA monitor with its 17 inch viewable display will convince others I am awesome and leet,and that I know everything about everything because I read it on wikipedia,and because I know my Dreamcast run trough s-video trough Dscaler looks better then running my Dreamcast straight into my VGA monitor,cause I am SOOOOO leet it kills me and because my mommy luvs me special." ???   Well I guess you found different then huh???

[PCEngineHell]

OK do this.  Take a picture or two of a game running on the TurboGrafx or Genesis (not a screen capture, do like I did with a digital camera).  It can be a game of your choice (except Sonic 2).  Take kind of a close-up picture like I did on the last page.  Post it/them here.  I won't compare it to my component setup, but I will compare it to S-video on an SDTV.

Most likely what will happen here is he will do this,compare and realize how ugly his is,then he will run out,get a SDTV,take a pic,then post that and claim its his computer method with Dscaler running.

[Buster D]

What happened,did you try to carry this argument over at Gamefaqs

Uh, no.  I tried reading the boards there once, but I got sick of the all the fanboy flamings well before I ever posted there.

my computer with Dscaler to my whopping huge 19 inch VGA monitor

22 inch, actually.

and because I know my Dreamcast run trough s-video trough Dscaler

Actually, I only do this for games that aren't compatible with the VGA box.

As for the rest of your post....    How old are you, exactly?  Your opinion of DScaler seems to have no basis on its technical details, and your arguments against it consist of nothing but calling me names and making up stuff about me.  I by no means think DScaler is perfect, especially for deinterlacing DVDs.  But it will do until I get a standalone high-end upscaler.  If you have anything mature to say about it, I'm willing to listen.

[PCEngineHell]

Look,I think we just said a side by side comparison would prove it,but you are not willing to do that I am sure. I have already seen it run,its not impressive,and it is not just as good as just using my tv,esp for games. I also fail to see why you would need to capture a DVD,clean up and deinterlace the image with Dscaler.  There are better methods. I take it your trying to remove ghosting or artifacts? Try using IVTC inside TMPG and see if it does what your wanting.

Besides the obvious image quality problems,the fact you have to use your computer,the fact you have to start it up and run Windows first,unlike just turning on a TV,is a problem in and of itself. Couple that with the limited viewing size of affordable VGA monitors. And when you say 22 inch I am to take it then your viewing area for your computer screen is 20-19 inch? Your method to play a old game system is alot more bulky,less convenient,and takes longer to get going,and produces a less desirable picture quality. Whats there to argue about???? You obviously are stupid.....

[Buster D]

Look,I think we just said a side by side comparison would prove it,but you are not willing to do that I am sure.

Considering I'd have to get an entirely new monitor that can support RGB or get both a new TV and a transcoder yeah, I don't quite feel like doing that just to see essentially the same image except with scanlines and on a display with a lower refresh rate (I run mine at 120Hz).

I have already seen it run,its not impressive,

That doesn't tell me much.
On what kind of computer/monitor/capture card?  What were the monitor and DScaler settings?  It what ways was it not impressive?

and it is not just as good as just using my tv,esp for games. I also fail to see why you would need to capture a DVD and clean up the image with Dscaler.

DScaler is not capture software.  It was designed to watch external devices in real time on a PC.  My "capture card" is also made for this specific use.  And since DVDs often contain a progressive image telecined to a 480i one, so you need some kind of deinterlacer to do this.  There are multiple ways of doing this on a computer, DScaler is but one of them.

Besides the obvious image quality problems,

I'm not seeing any.  Have any specific examples?

the fact you have to use your computer,the fact you have to start it up and run Windows first,unlike just turning on a TV,is a problem in and of itself.

Doesn't bother me as I'm often using it for other things.

Couple that with the limited viewing size of affordable VGA monitors. And when you say 22 inch I am to take it then your viewing area for your computer screen is 20-19 inch?

20 or 21 I believe, but sitting in my normal chair, the screen fills a good bit of my field of vision.  Sometimes I have to scoot back, depending on what's being displayed.

Your method to play a old game system is alot more bulky,less convenient,and takes longer to get going,

None of these things matter to me compared to the quality, which I am perfectly satisfied with for the time being.

and produces a less desirable picture quality.

You'll have to be more specific if you want this point to have any value.

I'll maybe take some pics of the display later, got some other stuff to finish first.

[Joe Redifer]

Stop talking and start taking pictures!  I don't think there is anything more that can be said without pictures (except an off-topic remark that DVDs can store progressive images without telecine).

[Buster D]

Stop talking and start taking pictures! 

Sorry, I'm at work right now.

I don't think there is anything more that can be said without pictures (except an off-topic remark that DVDs can store progressive images without telecine).

They can, yes.  But many, many are only stored as interlaced, especially TV shows, even if they're shot on film.  DScaler and other deinterlacers can reconstruct the 24 film frames per second and display them as progressive video. This is a feature built into most DVD players nowadays, but the quality can vary.

[PCEngineHell]

DScaler is not capture software.  It was designed to watch external devices in real time on a PC.  My "capture card" is also made for this specific use.  And since DVDs often contain a progressive image telecined to a 480i one, so you need some kind of deinterlacer to do this.  There are multiple ways of doing this on a computer, DScaler is but one of them.

Well I hate to point this out to you,but when you run a DVD player along with anything else into a capture card,your capturing the image onto your computer,given the name,capture card. Nor did I even state that Dscaler is capture software,although it is a assisting program used to clean and view the captured image your desiring to view. In other words you are then using Dscaler to clean the captured image up a bit to make it cleaner and more appealing to your eyes. As I said above as for deinterlacing DVDs,

There are better methods. I take it your trying to remove ghosting or artifacts? Try using IVTC inside TMPG and see if it does what your wanting.

I'll maybe take some pics of the display later, got some other stuff to finish first.

Thats what all the losers say....

I don't quite feel like doing that just to see essentially the same image except with scanlines and on a display with a lower refresh rate (I run mine at 120Hz).

Since your highest goal is aimed at getting the worst possible image with your older game systems why not just use emulaters on your leet set up instead???

Sorry, I'm at work right now.

If so,then why are you still on here arguing with us for hours on end.....

As far as computers specs goes,it doesn't much matter,as long as you are using a good high end Athlon XP,2800-3200+,preferably Athlon 64,have at least 1-2 gigs of ram, a good chipset based motherboard,like a Nforce 2-Nforce 3 250 if your using a AGP All in Wonder,and a good modern All in Wonder 9800-2006 Edition your system should be fine and able to prevent dropped frames of your system,and with Dscaler use a Wintv or ATI Tv Wonder.

No matter how well you optimize the settings on Dscaler,it will not be perfect,or as good looking on old game systems as a SDTV. To some extent you even admitted this,but you turn around and say you prefer your setup because you don't like scanlines and low refresh rates. Well,I am sorry but old game systems were built for SDTV image capability,not to be run into AIW Pros with Dscaler and displayed on Super VGA screens.

 I have already had plenty of discussions like this before,and about upscalers too when I chit chatted on laser disc forums. Basically what your trying to do is improve a image that cant be improved the way your thinking it can it sounds like. You may not admit to this,but it is essentially what your doing,and you are failing. And your also assuming because we don't use the "leet" method your using that we know nothing about it,but your wrong,because it ends up we know quite abit more then you.

Basically in the end you are just sitting there lying to yourself and willingly cheating yourself out of a better gaming image. In the end this is your choice,but no one here is going to agree with you about it,so maybe you should take your argument elsewhere,because you are all alone here.

[Buster D]

In other words you are then using Dscaler to clean the captured image up a bit to make it cleaner and more appealing to your eyes.

I'm not using a filters to clean up the image. I'm just using DScaler to deinterlace (to 240p in the case of retro video games or 480p for DVDs, etc.).  All this does is restore the original progressive image.

If so,then why are you still on here arguing with us for hours on end.....

I don't necessarily have to actually be working 100% of the time I'm at work.

No matter how well you optimize the settings on Dscaler,it will not be perfect,or as good looking on old game systems as a SDTV.

This is your opinion, and you haven't said anything specific about how a video game looks poor using DScaler so I don't see why I should count your opinion as an informed one.

To some extent you even admitted this,but you turn around and say you prefer your setup because you don't like scanlines and low refresh rates.

RGB is better than S-Video, but not by much.  As for scanlines, the only thing they do for me is to help hide the fact that I'm seeing a low-resolution video game on a big screen, which doesn't bother me in the first place. YMMV.

Well,I am sorry but old game systems were built for SDTV image capability,not to be run into AIW Pros with Dscaler and displayed on Super VGA screens.

Many weren't built with RGB output or even S-Video or composite output, either.  Just like how Nintendo crippled the later releases of the Gamecube, I doubt if any of the makers thought the majority of gamers would be using their systems on anything but ghetto TVs.

I have already had plenty of discussions like this before,and about upscalers too when I chit chatted on laser disc forums. Basically what your trying to do is improve a image that cant be improved the way your thinking it can it sounds like.

Again, be more precise.  How is DScaler not restoring a 240p image from the 480i output of a video game system?

[PCEngineHell]

Many systems ehh...
Last I checked the Master system,Genesis,Nes,Pc Engine on up all either produced either composite,or RGB,and in the case of the Master System,Genesis/Megadrive,NeoGeo you can use the XMD 1 or 2 to obtain S-video off of the RGB.Snes produces S-Video and RGB. As for the Gamecube being crippled,they never took S-video away,just the Digital AV port. Are you completely retarded???

And after even stating in your own words that your setup using Dscaler is not perfect,how can your turn around and say its producing the exact same image as a old system on a SDTV at the same quality. When are you going to take pics. Give a time and do it,instead of blabbing more of your complete shite. See,its not up to the majority to prove you wrong,we already know you are,as about everything you have stated so far is from a technical standpoint,its up to you to prove the majority wrong,and you as of yet have made no valid attempt to do so.

Scanlines are a normal part of SDTV,and older game systems are all built around the idea of being displayed on a SDTV with a NTSC or Pal signal. IT IS THE WAY IT IS MEANT TO BE VIEWED. If they intended you to view 240P without scanlines they would have given you otherwise. This is just how it was back then. There is no way around it without making it actually look worse. And the method your using,its a reproduction of the real thing,and it is not as good looking,and you flat out know this,as you have even admitted here and there. And you have yet to post pics,and I am doubtful you will,because you know your setup is going to look ugly as hell on your Megadrive or whatever other old system your going to use..

As far as me saying anything specific as to why Dscaler not as good looking,well for one the color reproduction is off,and 2 the fact that your running it into a capture card,then displaying it on a VGA monitor which has a completely different and much higher pixel per line count is also another reason. No matter how much work you have Dscaler do,it will not look as good or even the exact same as my TV with my systems run in composite or S-video. Thats a simple fact you need to accept. And it def wont look better then our Tvs running older hardware.

Anyway,take your pics and post them,prove us wrong if you can.

[Buster D]

Many systems ehh...
Last I checked the Master system,Genesis,Nes,Pc Engine on up all either produced either composite,or RGB,

Really crappy composite in some cases, and RGB could only be obtained with mods or homemade/imported cables, the American branches of the companies didn't do jack to give customers RGB.  And there's plenty of video game systems that came out before the NES that only had RF.

Snes produces S-Video and RGB.

The first version of the SNES anyways.

And after even stating in your own words that your setup using Dscaler is not perfect,

I never said it wasn't perfect for obtaining a 240p image from a video game system.

Scanlines are a normal part of SDTV,and older game systems are all built around the idea of being displayed on a SDTV with a NTSC or Pal signal. IT IS THE WAY IT IS MEANT TO BE VIEWED.

This is nothing more than your opinion.  A gamer can choose to play his video games however he likes, no video game company said you always have to play their games with scanlines.  And the way games are designed isn't always absolute from an official standpoint, either.  Game Boy games were designed to be played on a Game Boy, yet Nintendo brought out several ways to play them on a TV.

As far as me saying anything specific as to why Dscaler not as good looking,well for one the color reproduction is off,

A small difference in color quality hardly makes a big difference.  The tint isn't off and colors look perfectly vibrant.

and 2 the fact that your running it into a capture card,then displaying it on a VGA monitor which has a completely different and much higher pixel per scan line count is also another reason.

So what?  All the same pixels and lines are still being displayed, nothing is being dropped.

No matter how much work you have Dscaler do,it will not look as good or even the exact same as my TV with my systems run in composite or S-video.

If you think composite is better than my setup just because it has scanlines, more power to you.  Gave me a good laugh, though.

[Buster D]

Well, I tried taking pictures, but I just have a crappy cellphone camera so they couldn't get an accurate picture of the screen (I also tried taking a picture of the desktop so I know it wasn't DScaler's fault).  Oh well, you'd probably just use the lack of scanlines or some other excuse to bash it.

[PCEngineHell]

You have yet to post any pics,you just carry on with your typical flawed argument and now add complaints to it like "its hard to get a good RGB cable Blah Blah Blah Whine Whine Whine" Funny your esp complaining about how the American side of things went,when you don't even live here it sounds like.

This is nothing more than your opinion.  A gamer can choose to play his video games however he likes, no video game company said you always have to play their games with scanlines.  And the way games are designed isn't always absolute from an official standpoint, either.  Game Boy games were designed to be played on a Game Boy, yet Nintendo brought out several ways to play them on a TV.

Yes you can choose the display method of your choice,that is your right,however what I said is not a  matter of opinion but of fact. The official standpoint was decided and stated when they placed RF,composite,Av and rgb ports on these systems. The game systems created back then were indeed created and designed to be displayed on SDTVs and RGB monitors and since these had scanlines its pretty obvious they go hand in hand. THIS is all there was at the time,all there was for over 40 years to the general public.

This has been fact since  NTSC color television standard  was decided on and invented in the 50ies and up until HDTV was made SDTV WAS the ONLY standard available to the normal masses as the in-home visual display unit for game systems and video devices. SDTV and RGB monitors are the obvious best choice visual quality wise as nothing up to date has looked better for older game systems. This will always remain fact,because alot of HDTV sets do not work well with older 240P game systems and LD players,and exhibit flaws in the visual quality and this will only continue to get worse as SDTV is pushed away in favor of completely switching over to HDTV.

SDTV and RGB analog monitors are the best option for old systems visually,if you want the best picture quality.
Your Gameboy argument is not exactly up to snuff because your taking a game from one system and running it on another via re-engineering methods of hardware along with  a adapter. This took alot of work to do,and in the end actually did not look all that great.

All they did was give you a chance for a larger viewing area and a horrible swappable color palette and junk borders. And I am not sure how you these have great or improved visual quality,as all I remember there being was the Super Game Boy 1 and 2,with both having the same CRAP visual quality,and the Superwideboy which was horrible also because the coloring was off and the image was muddled,plus it carried a $1400 price tag. Then you have the GBA Gamecube adapter which in itself has its own set of visual problems.

[PCEngineHell]

Well, I tried taking pictures, but I just have a crappy cellphone camera so they couldn't get an accurate picture of the screen (I also tried taking a picture of the desktop so I know it wasn't DScaler's fault).  Oh well, you'd probably just use the lack of scanlines or some other excuse to bash it.

LOL I think we were expecting you to come up with some sort of lame excuse,and you did,so fuck off and stop arguing about something you know nothing about. You're a joke.
BTW,you got home from work and tried to take those pics pretty fast. Sure you were even at work??? Maybe we should have Keranu check to see if the ip address matches for the past few post you did... Oh wait,now you'll probably say you work at home and you only had to travel from your moms computer to your computer in your bedroom I bet. 

[Buster D]

Whatever man.  I seriously doubt anything would convince you that using DScaler doesn't produce a crappy image, despite you not offering a shred of evidence as to why it sucks other than the minor color difference.  You've convinced me of nothing.

I'm gonna go enjoy some beautiful video games rendered on my Mitsubishi CRT in 240p with no scanlines.  I hope you stock up on RGB monitors to keep playing games your way for the next couple decades, as they're getting harder to find day by day.

[PCEngineHell]

Hard to find how and in what way.... I am surrounded by Best Buys,Circuit City,Wal-Marts,K-Marts,Targets,Sears who sell SDTV sets and arcade vendors who sell RGB tubes and monitors. Not only that,but I don't think ebay is going anywhere and I already have 3 SDTV sets as it is. Yea I will buy a 2-3 more eventually,and they will probably last me my life time as I will only be using them for older hardware.

As I stated before,you obviously hate scanlines,and you seek to try to improve your older game systems image quality with your computer,and you fail. Scanlines are a key factor at making the image look good on lower res systems. Line doubling old game systems just gives a emulated look,like on HDTV sets.

[esteban]

As I have said many times, RF and Composite are the only true path to Peace, Love and Happiness.

Seriously, though, let's just play some PCE games and be happy .

[TurboXray]

 Michael: Buster D isn't attacking you with insults so why are you attacking him? Please either take a chill pill or just STFU.

[PCEngineHell]

Michael: Buster D isn't attacking you with insults so why are you attacking him? Please either take a chill pill or just STFU. 

Bonknuts why don't you stfu. You totally missed this little conversation I am guessing since I did not see you post once during the 8-10 hours that conversation went on,as we were all having a technical argument,and this guy was either blantently lying or fooling himself into believing he is right,and obviously was making false technical statements he could not back up nor did he want to admit he is wrong.

  He couldn't provide his magic proof of his superior,not superior,then superior again according to him picture quality,obviously was not at work,maybe doing homework from school,but not working...either way he was arguing a subject he was wrong on on about every point.

  As for insulting,I did not really insult him,not terribly at least on anything other then the fact he was wrong and couldn't prove he was right,other then to tell him to fuck off and stop arguing after he failed to deliver his "proof" to prove he is so so right. I didn't call him little lying bitch,lying faggot,lying asshole,lying dumbass,lying idiot ect ect... I didnt tell him he was molested by his daddy or momma,accuse him of raping little children ect ect...

 I laugh at how members like you come along many many hours after the argument is over and go" Oh boy,we better get a word in too".You even do it on threads where a comment hasn't even been posted again for days. Its so damn laughable. If you want to help the guy out,try to prove him right,but don't get mad at me cause the guy is wrong and wants to argue about something he does not know much of nothing about. The argument is done and over now,you missed the game,move on unless you can prove him right somehow,unless of course you are just blantently trying to start a argument with me???

[Hobo Xiphas]

Posting just to get my word in this topic

[nat]

The argument was over hours ago. Better get my word in too!

[Zeta-Gouki]

So... there are time limits as to when you can and can't post? i.e. if it's 8-10 hours later, too bad?

lol 

[PCEngineHell]

I laugh at how members like you come along many many hours after the argument is over and go" Oh boy,we better get a word in too".You even do it on threads where a comment hasn't even been posted again for days. Its so damn laughable. If you want to help the guy out,try to prove him right,but don't get mad at me cause the guy is wrong and wants to argue about something he does not know much of nothing about. The argument is done and over now,you missed the game,move on unless you can prove him right somehow,unless of course you are just blantently trying to start a argument with me???

I think you guys know what I meant,I was pretty clear about it. People coming around to help a guy carry his argument when the argument is already over and has been obviously for hours or days,and don't even have anything to offer to help him back up his points is not helping him at all,its just a method of trying to keep a argument stirred up without actually having anything solid to contribute to win one side over to the others theories as to why they are correct. Now your just being silly,but silly is good,getting lighthearted is a good way of getting things back on track.

[TurboXray]

The argument is done and over now,you missed the game,move on unless you can prove him right somehow,unless of course you are just blantently trying to start a argument with me???

I already posted my opinion previously on the argument. My last post was about your behavior, not the argument. People like you are the reason PCE/TG16 fans don't come here as often or anymore. How about showing some sort of restraint or at least a little respect? But whatever. I'll just go back to pce dev/projects and disregard this board.


 Btw, some of us have jobs. Jobs that, you know, get in the way to keeping up with a thread hour by hour and prevents us from posting. It's such a drag.

[PCEngineHell]

The argument is done and over now,you missed the game,move on unless you can prove him right somehow,unless of course you are just blantently trying to start a argument with me???

I already posted my opinion previously on the argument. My last post was about your behavior, not the argument. People like you are the reason PCE/TG16 fans don't come here as often or anymore. How about showing some sort of restraint or at least a little respect? But whatever. I'll just go back to pce dev/projects and disregard this board.


 Btw, some of us have jobs. Jobs that, you know, get in the way to keeping up with a thread hour by hour and prevents us from posting. It's such a drag.

Your last comment did not help his argument,that being MY point. And if he was at work he obviously was not working,and inbetween all that posting he got home really fast to attempt to take pics,before copping out. It became a put up or shut up argument,and he couldn't put up,so he needs to shut up. If he has no way to win his obviously flawed case he needs to stop while he is ahead,instead of pretending to know what he is talking about,and saying his method looks awesome,or even great,because removing scanlines from a older game system image does not improve it,esp if hes running Genesis via composite,its just going to be really ugly. He thought he knew what Super VGA was but was wrong there too.

As for the comment about lack of membership here,that is not my fault. If you want a comparison,the Neo forums are full of real insulting,ranting,bickering,name calling,and the membership there is extremely high. Arguments here take place hardly at all. And if your going to toss blame on me,you have to toss blame on all members partaking in the arguments that have taken place here. You want membership here to expand more,instead of complaining about me,go out and promote this site more,try to recruit more people into the fold,and if at all possible,make it people who have half a idea as to what they are talking about,or are at least humble enough to know they are wrong and able to learn. I typically point alot of ebay customers of mine that collect games in this direction,if nothing else then to just get a look at the site.

As for members leaving because of members like me in vast amounts,I'm sorry I did not notice,because all I have seen here is about the exact same members posting since I joined. With the exception of some new ones including you,as I have been  a member here almost a year longer then you have been,and post twice as much. I would def have noticed this more then you if it had been occurring. Now there has been a few people who joined,but only to sell stuff,or ask a question or 2,then they go on and do their own thing. Thats completely fine and you can't blame that kind of activity on members like me.

[ccovell]

Enough, enough!  This is tedious in the extreme.  Nobody else on this forum cares who is at fault when personal attacks come up.  Straying off-topic is bad enough, but doing it with personal gibes at each other makes us all unhappy.

[_Paul]

Lock please!

[Keranu]

Would anyone else like to get a word in before I lock it?

[Spector]

Would anyone else like to get a word in before I lock it?

Yeah - anyone do a good RGB mod?     

[GUTS]

Why lock topics?  That's for pussies.  I can see why Joe and Mike get so pissed about this, its like on the Gamesx forums when somebody pretends to know what they're talking about, then they get dismantled by a couple of the regulars, its hilarious.

[Seldane]

Word.

[esteban]

Why lock topics?  That's for pussies.  I can see why Joe and Mike get so pissed about this, its like on the Gamesx forums when somebody pretends to know what they're talking about, then they get dismantled by a couple of the regulars, its hilarious.

  Indeed. As a general policy, I don't think we should lock topics. Thus far, I don't think this thread warrants any further measures.

Plus, I think it's more important that we "police" ourselves. We have been doing a decent job of it.

I just wish we could find out what games Buster D was playing on his set-up! Tell us Buster, if you're still out there...

[PCEngineHell]

Well,you know he could have just as easily put up his pics as proof,but I mean,he kept changing his opinion of the picture quality,and I know how well Dscaler runs,and I do not like it for games. It doesn't matter how well you tweak it,its not going to give you as good a picture for older game systems as he would like to believe. Also,I knew what his goal was,without him even saying it.

He was using his comp and Dscaler to avoid SDTVs  scanlines and try to improve the game systems picture,which just can not be done by that method,as it does not look as natural or as normal as on a well made SDTV. He even confirmed it with this remark:

But it will do until I get a standalone high-end upscaler.

I do not know if he even considered this but a high end up-scaler even worth buying is up there well past $1500.
Couple this with the cost of a good HDTV just to avoid scanlines and your talking madness. At this rate he would be better off just playing roms on emus. Its the look hes gunning for and since thats the case it would be cheaper to do the emu scene instead.

Dscaler is good for deinterlacing video like VHS and LD and if your lazy, DVD to watch on the fly. However if you really want to deinterlace DVD at the best quality it is better to do it by another method,like in Tmpg. Takes longer,but the end product will look nicer.Dscaler also works well for reducing video noise on analog video like VHS and Laserdisc on the fly and detecting and removing 2:2 pulldown of Pal and 3:2 pulldown on stuff. Its a better suited program for video,not video games.

The other problem I kinda have with Dscaler is it can give a slightly blurred look after its done doing its thing,and this is more obvious with DVDs watched trough it. But I mean,its the quickest method,and the quickest is not going to look the best easily.

The guy is going trough alot of hassle just to run his older game systems and there is no excuse for that really when he could avoid all that and just embrace the fact the stuff will look fine on a normal SDTV. Hes trying to be too techie and leet with his computer then anything else. Oh yea,the other prob,and this is well known,is that Dscaler has issues with  a variety of capture cards,so if your buying one just for it you should check the list of known working cards. ATIs TV Wonder works well,that I am sure of.

[Hobo Xiphas]

Would anyone else like to get a word in before I lock it?

I like pie 

[NecroPhile]

Would anyone else like to get a word in before I lock it?

I like pie 

Ummmm... hair pie - yes, I am a post whore. 

It's funny how people will defend their ideas regardless of how many times they are shown the error of their ways.  DScaler would almost make sense if the goal were to use an HDTV.  Old consoles look best on a SDTV, but not everybody wants to have another set around the house for games.  Not to mention there is a lack of new, quality CRT sets in larger sizes in either SDTV or HDTV (unfortunately, tubes are going the way of the dodo bird).  If you're going to use a computer at all, why not cut out the middle man, box up the console for storage, and just use an emulator?  Does anybody on here do this?  When my set goes into the great beyond, I figure that will be the route that I take.

[TR0N]

Would anyone else like to get a word in before I lock it?

I like pie 

For that matter where's the pie!?

1+

I'm sure some body will get the joke.

[_Paul]

cake > pie

[Spector]

To return to what a lot of this topic was originally about, I've been looking at the differences between composite and Xbox emulation via SCART, and I've come to the conclusion that composite in some games has an advantage over RGB, though overall RGB is preferable.
Volfied, for example, has a colourful pattern in the areas filled in screen one, but on the emulator, the pattern is black and white, and looks less interesting. The patterns were clearly designed to be seen through composite.
A more blatant example can be found in  Kung Fu. Stage 1-2 has a red sky and a red reflection in the water, and it dithers like crazy through composite. When playing it on the emulator, you can see why. The dithering covers up the limitations of the parallax scrolling, because without it, the foreground water appears to be connected to the footpath! It moves at the same speed, thus destroying the effect of the scrolling background.

To play devil's advocate though, I think the colour in Xevious is brilliant on RGB.

[Keranu]

cake > pie

Dude no way, cake sucks 90% of the time. Pie > Cake easily. I think the best answer is Donut > Everything.

[CrackTiger]

cake > pie

Dude no way, cake sucks 90% of the time. Pie > Cake easily. I think the best answer is Donut > Everything.

Dude, it goes Cake > Donut < Pie. 

Seriously 

You've got to get your mom, girlfiend, grandma, whoever, to brush up on their baking skills.