Hardest system to find complete games for?

[Peluso8]

Is the TG-16/CD/PCE, etc, the hardest system to find complete games for?

I collect for a lot of systems and I have never had so much trouble finding games CIB. Finding the outer box for even dirt common games is relatively harder than other systems.

When I actually find a store that sell TG-16 games, probably less that 5% of them have the outer boxes.

I don't know what the percentage would be for E-Bay, but I would imagine its around the same.

[nat]

Lots of people threw those boxes away BITD because the games had the jewel case with manual, etc. With other systems, like NES and SNES, the only real way to store the manual was to keep the original box around since the carts themselves had no other container. I think that's why you can find lots of people who kept NES and SNES boxes, for example, and comparably fewer who kept TG-16 boxes.

Speaking from my own personal experience, all the games I got pre-1994 I threw the boxes away. I started keeping the boxes in 94/95 when I realized the US stuff was going to start to get hard to find sooner or later. I bought Bonk 3 in '94 from TZD and I actually cut out the back of the box to use as a back insert for a home-made jewel case for the game.

[Peluso8]

Lots of people threw those boxes away BITD because the games had the jewel case with manual, etc. With other systems, like NES and SNES, the only real way to store the manual was to keep the original box around since the carts themselves had no other container. I think that's why you can find lots of people who kept NES and SNES boxes, for example, and comparably fewer who kept TG-16 boxes.

Would that mean that the later releases, that didn't have the jewel cases, would have boxes that are easier to find?

Speaking from my own personal experience, all the games I got pre-1994 I threw the boxes away. I started keeping the boxes in 94/95 when I realized the US stuff was going to start to get hard to find sooner or later. I bought Bonk 3 in '94 from TZD and I actually cut out the back of the box to use as a back insert for a home-made jewel case for the game.

Ouch.

[geddon_jt]

Would that mean that the later releases, that didn't have the jewel cases, would have boxes that are easier to find?

I wish that were the case, but no.

This is, without a doubt, the BIGGEST pain in the butt about Turbo collecting. As if some of the games weren't hard enough to find to begin with, finding them with the box (and not crushed and beat to hell) is a different story altogether.
The worst part is, a lot of people selling games dont even realize they came in cardboard boxes! So, all the time people advertise the games as "complete," even though they really only have the manual and jewel case.

[Tatsujin]

try to find comlete minty mf towns marty games. then you know what's pricey and hard to find

[geepee16]

the turbo is very hard to collect for if you are talking about the US TG16 stuff because those boxes were pretty flimsy. the duo days were easier cause you didn't have anything more to worry about than the jewel case.  the japanese stuff is a REAL pain in the butt if you care about spine cards. 

the european dreamcast is also hard only because those cases - beautiful as they are - break SO easily.

the marty is pretty tough too but nothing may beat the bandai pippin because it was just so rare.  you can put the laser active software into that category as well.

the most expensive collection to complete is probably the neo geo cart library or the famicom (only because of its sheer volume).  the pce one would cost a pretty penny but not as much as the neo would.

[DreamTR]

I disagree. I know more people with CIB Turbo Grafx collections including outer boxes and all the Super CD releases than CIB NES and SNES collections. There are 7 times as many games for each of those systems, and some games like Stadium Events just don't pop up often with a box ever. I mean less than 5 times I have ever seen a boxed Stadium Events on ebay for NES, and that's pushing it.

I would say Game Boy, Game Gear, Colecovision, and Atari 2600 are the roughest to collect CIB games for. Even if you have money, some of those still never show up.

[CrackTiger]

I disagree. I know more people with CIB Turbo Grafx collections including outer boxes and all the Super CD releases than CIB NES and SNES collections. There are 7 times as many games for each of those systems, and some games like Stadium Events just don't pop up often with a box ever. I mean less than 5 times I have ever seen a boxed Stadium Events on ebay for NES, and that's pushing it.

I would say Game Boy, Game Gear, Colecovision, and Atari 2600 are the roughest to collect CIB games for. Even if you have money, some of those still never show up.

If you're judging "finding" and "collecting" as 'collection completing', then sure anything with a large catalogue would be harder. Either way, collection-completing-wise, all it takes is a single impossible-to-find-complete title to make it technically "the hardest".

But if we're talking "Hardest system to find complete games for", then any console with 7 times as many games for it will be way easier to find complete games for. There are less than 150 TG-16 HuCard and CD games, but how hard do you think it would be to find 150+ complete NES or Genesis games?

At least half of the TG-16 HuCards released can be easily found for sale in new/sealed condition. There seem to be very few incomplete jewel-case-only TG-16 CD games in the world and most of the CD games that came with boxes aren't hard to find at least complete, with many regularly around that as new/sealed.

[Peluso8]

I disagree. I know more people with CIB Turbo Grafx collections including outer boxes and all the Super CD releases than CIB NES and SNES collections. There are 7 times as many games for each of those systems, and some games like Stadium Events just don't pop up often with a box ever. I mean less than 5 times I have ever seen a boxed Stadium Events on ebay for NES, and that's pushing it.

I don't think Stadium Events is a fair comparison. The game was pulled off of the shelves very early in its release and is probably the rarest game that was available in stores (not by mail order or special promotion or contest, etc).

I wasn't talking about picking a particular game and saying that it is impossible to find complete, I was talking about the games in general.

[CrackTiger]

Try finding a mint complete PC Cocoron.

Or for that matter a complete with spine copy of Space Fantasy Zone...

[MissaFX]

Is the TG-16/CD/PCE, etc, the hardest system to find complete games for?

I am gonna say it is a hard race between the Marty, the Pippin and the Laseractive.  Now finding USA Turbo games with the box can also be expensive and hard to find, but I am pretty sure they are easier to find than the first three I listed.

[SignOfZeta]

If by "complete" you mean the outer box then yeah, its hard. Why would anyone keep that? Its clearly meant to be tossed. I consider "complete" in the case of TG-16 stuff to be the jewel case and everything that goes inside of that, and in that case I'd say that the TG-16 and PCE are the easiest systems to find complete software for. Loose TG-16 and PCE CDs and HuCards are pretty uncommon.

Screw the box. Its useless.

[SignOfZeta]

Is the TG-16/CD/PCE, etc, the hardest system to find complete games for?

I am gonna say it is a hard race between the Marty, the Pippin and the Laseractive.  Now finding USA Turbo games with the box can also be expensive and hard to find, but I am pretty sure they are easier to find than the first three I listed.

Wait, where are you buying loose LaserActive games? I'm pretty sure I've never seen a loose LA game in my life.

[MissaFX]

Wait, where are you buying loose LaserActive games? I'm pretty sure I've never seen a loose LA game in my life.

I'm not talking about loose, I am talking about simply being able to find a copy of a specific game you want in the first place.  It can be damn hard to find ANYONE selling some titles.

[Sparky]

I always had a hard time finding TG16 Hu-card games in general when i started collecting years ago especially complete with the box, so i just gave up on the box and went for card, case, sleeve and manual, easier to display and store as well. The CD/Duo games are toughies to.

Of my complete collection of the US TG16 hucards (minus most boxes) surprising i have never found one in the wild, loose or complete!!!
Maybe with only Radio Shack selling TG16 stuff back in the day there seems to be not much on my Canadian home land to be found

[Ceti Alpha]

I always had a hard time finding TG16 Hu-card games in general when i started collecting years ago especially complete with the box, so i just gave up on the box and went for card, case, sleeve and manual, easier to display and store as well. The CD/Duo games are toughies to.

Of my complete collection of the US TG16 hucards (minus most boxes) surprising i have never found one in the wild, loose or complete!!!
Maybe with only Radio Shack selling TG16 stuff back in the day there seems to be not much on my Canadian home land to be found

I hear ya Sparks. It's a virtual TG wasteland up here in the Great White North.

[DreamTR]

CrackTiger, I am talking US releases. And it's not true that any system with a "larger library" is going to be harder to find games for.

Try collecting Japanese MSX PaLCOM LD games. Those aren't easy to find sometimes.


A US TurboGrafx collection is very easily obtainable. There are no "impossible" to find titles at all for that system. Magical Chase and Dynastic Hero are the closest, and those pop up on ebay moreso than titles for other systems.

I think a lot of people really just don't collect for other systems and know what is tough to get. Try collecting boxed original B & W Game Boy games. WHo kept the boxes for those? The value is not even high on those. Same for Game Gear. Those are way harder systems to complete than TG16. All you really need to complete TG16 is money, that's about it. The others (especially Atari 2600) you have wait and wait and may never get another chance. Video Life? Gauntlet? We're talking less than 20 of each that exist. I think 3,000 (smallest run of a TG game) is far more than 20 in terms of collecting.

Also, about Laseractive, are we talking US or Japan here? US can be hard. Road Prosecutor, JB Harold, 3D Museum, those are not easy to find. Time Gal is usually just expensive, but I'm telling ya, some games you can go YEARS without seeing boxes for other systems.

Also, Black Tiger: Space Fantasy Zone someone just made on CDrs. That's actually $150 and quite easy to find, looks just like a real TG game cept for the CDr bottom, but that's not even an official release.

[geepee16]

i don' even know if a print run of 20 should / would count as an official release but i guess it's a different debate altogether. 

of mainstream systems, i still have to go with the turbo/pce route as being the most difficult.  you have games that had low print runs (dead of the brain 1&2 and all of those hudson special editions), games that few want to part with (coryoon) , fakes to sort through (sapphire), games with lots of packaging (spine cards, posters, etc) rare accessories (try finding a SGX powerbase or pce speakers),  and ridiculously hard to find/overpriced games like indo no honou which , the last time i saw it, was $4,500. (i have only ever seen it twice and i have been to my share of stores in europe, north america and japan). we can take money into account too but also TIME and availablility.  there are many stores out there you could drive to and perhaps find that snes or genny game you were looking for.  how many people ever carried and how many stores ever had turbo stuff? radio shack? the sears catalog? eb? toys r us? select kmarts?  factor in the fact that lots of turbo stuff was wiped in when telegames usa ws hit by that tornado which destroyed their warehouse and the fact that whatever TTI bought back from retailers and/or couldn't resell had to be destroyed and it was a LOT of stuff.  basically, whatever telegames usa and uk, tzd and the LA based turbo re-seller (whose name escapes me at the moment) and others didn't buy was destroyed. 

so, as long as we are talking mainstream, the turbo/pce library takes the cake with the neo geo the more expensive (and there is SUCH a big problem with fakes there too). 

if we leave the mainstream, then it's all just about impossible.  there were only like 54,000 pippins even released in north america and japan. laseractive, pippin, cd32, marty, playdia- i would rank as follows from hardest on down:

pippin
laseractive
marty
cd32
playdia (i think i just completed my playdia collection this week but need to confirm it)


in the end, it depends on our locations, experiences, available funds, language ability (it's easier to find some stuff on jp sites if you speak the language) and so on...

[SignOfZeta]

Wait, where are you buying loose LaserActive games? I'm pretty sure I've never seen a loose LA game in my life.

I'm not talking about loose, I am talking about simply being able to find a copy of a specific game you want in the first place.  It can be damn hard to find ANYONE selling some titles.

Well the original post wasn't about the hardest collection to complete, but rather the system where most of the time the games themselves aren't "complete", his definition of "complete" including the useless US-only cardboard boxes that everyone threw away the minute they got the game. I tend to agree with him thinking its US-TG16 because all that super rare shit is usually found complete from my experience. I have never seen a loose Playdia game for sale. Not even once.

[PCEngineHell]

the fact that whatever TTI bought back from retailers and/or couldn't resell had to be destroyed and it was a LOT of stuff. 

Everything from TTI that they still had left over got split between SmartWorks and TZD. Nothing was destroyed.

[geepee16]

that is incorrect.  there were truckloads of inventory that TTI was left with.  it was not given to charity let alone to any business.  the guys who became tzd bought what they could and smart works bought some software and a bunch of duos.  telegames bought stuff then and even before that.  when TTI was liquidated, remaining unsold stock had to be destroyed and it was.  the name of the person who ordered it (based on the advice of lawyers ) was a guy named takashi shingu (originally from and still with nec) who was on the original tg16 team in woodale, illinois and then moved over to the newly-formed tti when they set up shop in california.  over twenty truckloads of full pallets of new inventory were crushed by d9 caterpillar bulldozers.  i'm told that the polaroids of that day still exist.

and while i am 100% certain of the above i am less certain about this: smart works didn't buy very much and never can be said to have had all that much in the way of turbo merchandise. however, i may be wrong on that.

[PCEngineHell]

My understanding of this all was from TZD and Smart Works themselves. Back in the early days,95,when TZD was friendly they told me they nabbed it all software wise when TTI closed out. I dont know how many were supposed to be,but at least acouple of the TZD people were from TTI. Smart Works got ahold of most all of the remainder of the hardware TGCD wise and a ton of Duos due to the falling out of the development of the DUO to PC card that wa sneve rmarketed.

Due to this they also had  a agreement with NEC that was on legal contract that they were the only ones allowed to sell said hardware,not TZD, and that TZD could only trade out Duos for TGcd decks via trade in with cash until the contract expired. This was supposed to help aid in them making back money that was spent in development on the Duo to PC card.

So really what you are saying really contradicts what TZD themselves had stated,so yea if you have proof with pics,that would be a great find info wise. Id also love to see the crushed pallets pics. That would be interesting.

[SignOfZeta]

that is incorrect.  there were truckloads of inventory that TTI was left with.  it was not given to charity let alone to any business.  the guys who became tzd bought what they could and smart works bought some software and a bunch of duos.  telegames bought stuff then and even before that.  when TTI was liquidated, remaining unsold stock had to be destroyed and it was.  the name of the person who ordered it (based on the advice of lawyers ) was a guy named takashi shingu (originally from and still with nec) who was on the original tg16 team in woodale, illinois and then moved over to the newly-formed tti when they set up shop in california.  over twenty truckloads of full pallets of new inventory were crushed by d9 caterpillar bulldozers.  i'm told that the polaroids of that day still exist.

and while i am 100% certain of the above i am less certain about this: smart works didn't buy very much and never can be said to have had all that much in the way of turbo merchandise. however, i may be wrong on that.
 

Hm...am I the only one that has never heard this story before, or anything like it?

[PCEngineHell]

Same here,to this day I dont think anyone has heard this story until geepee16 posted it here. For that matter I tried to look up anything related to it on google,ect,including the name given (takashi shingu ) in diff searches which came up with no results. Considering what I was told by actual TZD people along with the people who pointed them out to me from the NEC help line back then,and Smart Works,Im not very inclined to give that story any credit without some documented proof and pics of the stock being destroyed.

[DreamTR]

geepee: 20 games via Mail order even= official release, just not available in stores, but that is back in the 2600 days. THe thread really was about US Turbo games, not PC Engine in general, which is a whole other beast, so I stand by in terms of US systems to collect for, the TG 16 is further down the list in terms of difficulty. Game Boy is a much higher beast in terms of completeness.

AS far as Sapphire goes, that second print run is real, it's not a CDr, just a second print run, so I'm not sure why anyone honestly thinks that is a bootleg. Do we consider SNES Majesco or Game Gear releases that have far worse box art and cart label stickers "bootlegs" as well? Really baffles me the logic on that one.

[spenoza]

I am inclined to believe geepee16. There are a number of corporate and insurance reasons companies must destroy merchandise, and I doubt the TZD crew ever had enough investment capital to truly buy every piece of unsold inventory.

[PCEngineHell]

I am inclined to believe geepee16. There are a number of corporate and insurance reasons companies must destroy merchandise, and I doubt the TZD crew ever had enough investment capital to truly buy every piece of unsold inventory.

Im less likely to believe it due to the fact that I fail to see why ex-TTI employees starting TZD would pass over quality stuff about to be destroyed to instead purchase pallets of Turrican,TV Sports,Power Golf,and Andre Panza. Not only that,but the print runs for the TTI released titles were not that large......and its mostly the TTI titles that were sent back in 93-94,not the old stock titles as they had been sitting in storage already for  a very long time due to low demand for them and no shelf space as it was dedicated to new titles.

 None of the stores near me even sent anything back. They discounted it and it all sold out,and even before the systems death when they sold out of  atitle they never got more in,they just gave the shelf space up for a newer one. Only Toys R Us,EB,Babbages and Software Ect. sold Turbo stuff here. No one else did. And again,no one as of yet has mentioned this mass destruction story,not even TZD's Steve who was the last functioning employee at TTI.

[geepee16]

Due to this they also had  a agreement with NEC that was on legal contract that they were the only ones allowed to sell said hardware,not TZD, and that TZD could only trade out Duos for TGcd decks via trade in with cash until the contract expired. This was supposed to help aid in them making back money that was spent in development on the Duo to PC card.

So really what you are saying really contradicts what TZD themselves had stated,so yea if you have proof with pics,that would be a great find info wise. Id also love to see the crushed pallets pics. That would be interesting.

it's pretty unreasonable to put me or anyone to task of unearthing photos and documents relating to those days.  almost no one could do it and a lot of those things wouldn't be easily made available.  furthermore, guys like shingu-san have long since moved on.  he, for example was - last i heard - selling monitors or something like that for nec in europe.  so, if you're waiting for me to open my magic box to produce the proof you need, well, don't hold your breath for very long, please.

the fact that you have never heard the story has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not it is true.  until very recently, i don't think ANY of us knew that there were two shooters hidden in tokimeki memorial- a game we've had under our noses for 15 years.

destruction of unsold merchandise is extremely common- especially when a business is going under.  in order to have debts forgiven and be liquidated, all assets must be sold.  whatever is not sold may NOT be kept in most cases because that company has to be zeroed out without and value on the books.  you can't just keep your products lying around and make profit in the future when you owe money now.

TZD was a private company which had to buy wahtever it had.  NEC gave them almost nothing except for authorization and the responsibility to meet the 7 year product service requirement for the turbo.  had TTI not been around, NEC would have HAD to keep an office open to handle product service.  since they wanted out, they made the two guys who started tzd (we know one, i cannot say the other's name because he is still very much around) a good offer to bear that responsibility but could not give them unsold stock because that stuff had to be accounted for in TTI's liquidation.

the guys guys who started tzd bought as much as they could but -and they BOTH have told me this- did not buy everything and at the end of 1993/early 94, stuff was destroyed.  it happened to the colecovision. it happened to several atari games (mostly notoriously ET).

believe it or not.  heard it or not, that is the truth.  i am not given to making stuff up because i feel like it.  i have met, talked to, interviewed and had dinner with lots of people who were there including the kudo family (hudson's founders), ikeda, takahashi and several others who would not like to be named.  take it as you will but you will never be able to say again that you have never heard the story because you just got it.

[PCEngineHell]

Just because you put up a wild tale does not make said wild tale true. You cant offer a shred of valid proof to back up your stories,yet you are sitting here saying you wined and dined with the best of them... who are you exactly? What makes you so important,and why is it you had all of these experiences you can recount yet cant prove any of it happened? Why exactly should we believe any of this?

See,its quite the opposite,why should anyone here just suddenly believe some wild unheard of story you just decided to spit out there. Its not unreasonable to ask someone to provide some kind of proof to back up such a wildly fantastic,or horrible, story as the one you provided.

[VestCunt]

Great story Geepee.  Thanks for the info!

AS far as Sapphire goes, that second print run is real, it's not a CDr, just a second print run, so I'm not sure why anyone honestly thinks that is a bootleg. Do we consider SNES Majesco or Game Gear releases that have far worse box art and cart label stickers "bootlegs" as well? Really baffles me the logic on that one.

There were heated debates about this when that guy sold a box of them on here a couple years ago and it's my impression that bootleg believers won out.  The fact that it's a real CD doesn't mean anything. 
Support for the 2nd printing argument basically amounts to "well, it looks fairly professional."  Most of the people who maintain this stance are either sellers trying to sell a bootleg for too much money or collectors who can't bear the thought that they got ripped off and their collection is incomplete.
I too would prefer to own a "2nd printing" but, without one shred of evidence to back the theory, the following points make me believe otherwise:
*Rarity and market conditions sufficient motivation for bootleggers.
*Inferior quality printing and static pop before the first cinema
*Manufacture of real PCE format CDs still possible when the bootlegs began to appear around 2002-03
*A board member (whose name escapes me) described his shopping experiences while visiting Japan awhile back and reported general knowledge of the Sapphire bootleg among store owners.
*Suspicious "care4data" origins.
*No evidence of any "re-release" through official channels or established outlets.  Instead, people started to show up with weird, different looking copies that bought on ebay, a forum, or a store that happened to have one copy.
 

[spenoza]

Michael, you don't have any proof of your version either, so don't go blasting his story for the same holes that exist in yours. Geepee16's story meshes better with what I know of the industry (and industry in general) and he certainly has strong industry connections. Didn't he write some stuff for Hudson? He's established himself as industry-connected. What's your connection, other than fandom?

I don't understand why your objections are so heated. Any time you don't like something someone says in these forums you start fuming like someone insulted your mother. Can't you disagree with someone calmly and rationally?

[SignOfZeta]

I am inclined to believe geepee16. There are a number of corporate and insurance reasons companies must destroy merchandise, and I doubt the TZD crew ever had enough investment capital to truly buy every piece of unsold inventory.

The absence of proof is not the proof of absence, obviously. You can believe his TZD story since it just materialized out of thin air in this very thread as far as I know, and there is no proof of of it being true one way or another.

That being said, the Sapphire "2nd run" is fake as hell and there is much evidence to prove that. It being an actual aluminum CD means nothing. I have many bootleg CD s (audio and game) and none of them are CD-Rs.

[nat]

George is the last guy that needs anyone to speak for him, but I feel I gotta chime in. George is a friend of mine, he's been on the scene a long time, probably actively even before me (just throwing that out there for those who are wondering "who" he is). He's done some work for Hudson over the years, even met and talked with Takahashi Meijin. Because of his time with Hudson and many years in Japan, he's had the opportunity to meet and speak with many people who have been involved in the PC Engine and Turbo in one regard or another. I haven't personally seen the photos he speaks of, but anyone with doubts can rest assured any information he brings to the table is legit. George may be a relatively new poster on these forums compared to some of us, but I've known the guy a few years now (long before he started posting here regularly), and he's always been a fascinating resource for obscure tidbits and factoids regarding our favorite console.

Whether or not you guys believe what he says is irrelevant though, really, since it already happened and arguing about it isn't going to change the reality of what went down. 

[SignOfZeta]

Cock. I keep forgetting who geepee16 actually is.

Never mind, I take it back.

The Sapphires are still fake though!

[VestCunt]

That Takahashi Meijin interview is pretty cool:

The PCE processor was based on the Z80 (same as the Sega Master System and Sega Genesis).

Maybe that's why the TG16 and SMS are my favorite systems!

[Turbo D]

That being said, the Sapphire "2nd run" is fake as hell and there is much evidence to prove that. It being an actual aluminum CD means nothing. I have many bootleg CD s (audio and game) and none of them are CD-Rs.

I'll second that! I believe that the bootlegger even admitted to the second run sapphires being fake!

[CrackTiger]

Black Tiger, I am talking US releases. And it's not true that any system with a "larger library" is going to be harder to find games for.

I was talking about U.S. releases and I said it's not true that any system with a "larger library" is going to be harder to find games for.

Also, Black Tiger: Space Fantasy Zone someone just made on CDrs. That's actually $150 and quite easy to find, looks just like a real TG game cept for the CDr bottom, but that's not even an official release.

I didn't think that a was necessary...

AS far as Sapphire goes, that second print run is real, it's not a CDr, just a second print run, so I'm not sure why anyone honestly thinks that is a bootleg. Do we consider SNES Majesco or Game Gear releases that have far worse box art and cart label stickers "bootlegs" as well? Really baffles me the logic on that one.

...but apparently it really was.

At which point would you consider the Sapphire bootlegs to not be legit? Obviously there is some point where you stop believing, since for some reason you think that the Space Fantasy Zone bootlegs made by the same person as the Sapphire bootlegs are not legit.

Every aspect of the Sapphire bootlegs is off (even the tear away strip). We even know where they were made and its not in Japan. I guess you've never taken a good look at them or heard all the evidence. You can find out how they differ here.

I'm not sure how anyone can honestly think that it is not a bootleg. The only 'evidence' that it is possibly anything but a bootleg has been a story from the person who somehow aquired the entire second print run and coincidentally decided to sell these prized collectibles at 10% of their value. The same person who just happened to come into possession of an equally near endless supply of equal quality Space Fantasy Zone copies. The same guy who now somehow has a bunch of misprints to sell.

You don't even need to even take a look at the item to already know that it's a bunch of b.s. But when you do, it turns out that its completely different from every commercially released PC Engine game.


The only reason I can think of that you might be trying to forward the notion that there may actually have been a second print run is if you're really the guy selling them. Especially with this quote-

That's actually $150 and quite easy to find, looks just like a real TG game cept for the CDr bottom, but that's not even an official release.

Since they've actually been selling for hundreds of dollars around the internet, only one special person has them that 'cheap' and everyone who knows they're cdr's can't comment on them without saying how big a rip off they are at that price.

But maybe it's just that your logic really is baffled.

[geepee16]

oh man, this is getting intense. this has all gotten a little off topic here but this is needed to happen for several reasons.  i want to say something about sapphire:

   there is a fact here that cannot be overstressed: there was official second print-run of sapphire and forgetting the fact that hudson themselves said so each time i asked,there are a few logical reasons why you should believe this anyway:
   the game was released as kind of an afterthought and in any case after the already discontinued and really undersold arcade card had made it's production run.  gears had already begun shifting to pc-fx mode.  we are talking november of 1995 here and the pc engine- while still fully supported was on the brink of discontinuation.  as we all know, japanese companies were not really into second runs of games with few exceptions (reference: radiant silvergun [5,000 copies i believe]).  so, with the pc engine reeling off the final games being developed for it and preparing to be discontinued and  FX production in full swing and the arcade card already discontinued, where was the logic in creating a second print run?
  the only thing that is in dispute as far as i am concerned is not the second official print run (there was none) but how many copies were in the first run. 
  some of the confusion regarding this game is undoubtedly due to the fact that it was released at a game show of sorts and shortly thereafter in stores.  but it was still only one run. 

http://hudsonent.com/feature.php?f=It%26%2339%3Bs_All_in_the_Card_%26%2340%3Bpart_II%26%2341%3B&feature_id=%99%A7%AA%A2%9A%A3&p=0

[VestCunt]

This is confusing.

there was official second print-run of sapphire

I assume you mean "there was [no] official second print-run of sapphire"

[spenoza]

That was the only way I could make it work, to assume there was indeed a word missing, as you suggest.

[CrackTiger]

http://hudsonent.com/feature.php?f=It%26%2339%3Bs_All_in_the_Card_%26%2340%3Bpart_II%26%2341%3B&feature_id=%99%A7%AA%A2%9A%A3&p=0

Is that your Acrade Card article? Kabuki Itouryoden is actually a completely original street fighter II'ish game, based off of the story/setting of TM: Fuun Kabuki Den. The Neo Geo TM/FEOE game is called Shinden/Kabuki Klash and it has Samurai Spirits'ish gameplay.

[Turbo D]

  So is he saying that there was a second print run aside from the obvious pirates? 

[PCEngineHell]

I don't care who he is,his articles have errors,and even Keranu did something for them,its not all that much a big deal,not so much at least as this guys how to date book.  Seriously,just because the guy got to do a few articles for Hudson US doesn't make him a hardcore insider,nor give me  a reason to believe everything he says,esp when he doesn't even have valid proof to back it up.

So for that I will continue to just believe what Steve and the other guy told me at TZD,and Smart Works too,along with what was left of the 2-3 guys answering the phone at the Nec help line. Those are the types I consider insiders. Not just a guy who says he is due to a few articles and living in Japan,unless of course hes on the Hudson payroll???

And Im not even going to go all into the many times the mag insiders have fed out false info..... People have their own choice to make to believe what they want to,obviously,but I take my stance that when some wild new story comes along,it needs some kinda proof to make it factual.

[DreamTR]

CrackTiger, if you wer etalking strictly US releases, you would have never brought up any PC Engine title in your previous responses.

There is nothing "baffling" about my logic. If the game has slightly different alterations from a different time at the production facility, it does not necessarily make it a bootleg by any means.

These things popped up in Japan randomly at game stores, what is it, 50/50 with these Sapphires at places? I';m surprised people don't think the Majesco SNES stuff are not boots, but whatever, to get the art and manual the way they did, they would have seriously had to steal stuff from Hudson, but whatever. I'll always think there's more to this than meets the eye.

[SignOfZeta]

I don't care who he is,his articles have errors,and even Keranu did something for them,its not all that much a big deal,

Well, I know you won't take my advice on anything, but for what its worth GP is %100 to be trusted. His collection is better than Tatsujin's and he was on the mailing list even before I was. He's not some 1Up reject Hudson USA found. More like the Steve Pearl of games. Some of his editorial content is a bit off (for example, many 1st party Saturn games had second print runs, even non-SeGaCoRe versions of stuff like Princess Crown, Silvergun, and many more) but in general his logic adds up (Greatest Hits, PSOne Books etc were just coming into being in Japan at the time after all, there certainly was a time when 2nd prints were scarce as hell) and I trust him fully on the specifics.

For once PCEngineHell, don't just be yourself.

Also, to you people who actually think the bootleg Sapphires are real; wake up. They aren't "from a different time at the production facility" they are from a different continent!

[PCEngineHell]

Well, I know you won't take my advice on anything, but for what its worth GP is %100 to be trusted. His collection is better than Tatsujin's and he was on the mailing list even before I was.

So by this logic then if you have a very large collection and are on a mailing list for years then everything you say will always be truthful/correct..... yea sure.....real valid major reasons listed there.

Some of his editorial content is a bit off

No kidding,I saw all sorts of fuck ups in his articles....

and I trust him fully on the specifics.

and some of his fuck ups were on the specifics....

For once PCEngineHell, don't just be yourself.

So I should be a mindless sheep and just eat up anything I am told? No thanks. Besides I don't take advice from people who steal my own morals and valid gripes from a TZD thread, bash me for them, and then pass them off as his own on his radio show.

[SignOfZeta]

Oh bloody hell.

[NecroPhile]

Interesting story, George, thanks for sharing.  It's totally lame and incomprehensible that they'd destroy a bunch of product to satisfy a debt.  Since it ain't free to haul a bunch of loaded pallets out to a landfill and pay the tipping fees, the dirty bums could've saved some dough by selling 'em for cheap or even giving 'em away for free (ET is a different story though, as nobody would've taken 'em without threat of bodily harm).  Mind you, this doesn't disprove your story in any way, as lame and incomprehensible decisions are the corporate way of life (witness every decision related to the Turbo in North America).

[geepee16]

i feel some things need to be cleared up:

    -indeed, i meant to say there was NO official second run of sapphire (though i think it was obvious that 's what i meant to say anyway[thanks to
     those of you who stepped in])
    
    -when posting my previous message on this thread last night, i thought about searching for an interesting blurb from ncsx.com and thought
     better of it as i didn't have time to go scrounging for it.  sadly, i couldn't find it but i have a feeling anyone who has been a customer of theirs
     for a long time will remember what i am talking about.  it was written at a time when they were getting lots of requests for special orders of
     discontinued games.  on their shop page they talked about why it was impossible due to the general unwillingness of japanese publishers to
     rerun a game.  this was very true in the early-mid 90s with perhaps a few exceptions.  unless the game was released with new packaging or a  
     sticker or something to differentiate it from the first run (like the segakores) or completely different artwork (like sakura taisen online
     [dreamcast]).  the game would otherwise have to be a super mega-seller like tengai makyou II which sold over 2,000,000   to warrant reprints.  
     (while i am certain that sapphire had no second run i can only be pretty-damned close to it about radiant silvergun not having one). the ONLY
     exception i know of would be dungeon explorer II in the US and that was only hudson allowing tzd 500 more copies in exchange for something
     involving another issue that tzd was going to take care of.

     -as for the destruction of turbo merchandise, i was neither giving an opinion nor creating fiction.  i hate to see flare-ups in this community because it's basically one of the few things Turbo we all still have.  with apologies to the original poster for taking part in getting off topic, i feel though that this needs to be said:
      Helgeson: I have been here on pcenginefx for about 11 years.  the forums were MUCH quieter then but i participated from time to time.  i went silent for years and it was only when you had your solar flare-up about tzd not doing right by you did i decided to jump back into the fray here.  it's not escaped me that your...incredible behavior... brought me to the boards in disgust and is the one thing that now makes we want to leave them in disgust.   you know, if this were all being done on the TML and you acted this way, i guarantee you would have been banned.  but, we are playing in a different house and we all have a little more room to stretch our legs and open our 'mouths'- however unfortunately big they are. you don't have to believe what i said about the destruction of un-bought turbo inventory if you don't want to.  you also don't have to believe that the Earth is round.  However, don't think it's asking too much for you to turn your volume down and behave like a fan (and not the shit that hits it from time to time).
      
    

[Tatsujin]

Sadly, a few years ago, a company in Switzerland began making near-perfect black-market copies of the game leading to some confusion and controversy.

oh yo yo, wait a moment. don't tag us swiss as some 1st grade soft pirates

just because they've used a made in swiss disk copy machine from "care4data" (which everyone can purchase and do its own professional copies) doesn't mean that the swiss are behind this rapine ;)

(buy your very own and fancy sapphire copy station here >>> www.care4data.ch )

btw: do ya know the exact amount of those official 1st and 2nd print copies?