Turbo Grafx monitor?.

[1980-20..]

What is this?.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEC-TURBO-GRAFX-16-KD863G-RGB-MONITOR-NOT-PC-ENGINE-LT-/220631662098?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item335eabfe12

[NecroPhile]

It's an overpriced monitor with a built-in PCE that someone has region modded.  Who in their right mind would spend $1000 to play TG-16 games on a 14" screen and without the option of playing CD titles?

[Duo_R]

Is that the rare PC Engine LT Pro?

[Arkhan Asylum]

Who in their right mind would spend $1000 to play TG-16 games on a 14" screen and without the option of playing CD titles?

I can think of at least 1 dumbshit who would.

[NecroPhile]

I can think of at least 1 dumbshit who would.

If you're talking about who I think you are, please put away your flame thrower.  Unless you meant yourself. 

[SignOfZeta]

If it were cheap, I'd love to have such a thing. Even at $1000 this thing is a way better deal than a $300 copy of Dynastic Hero.

Of course it would have to have be hacked back into playing PC Engines games again, or at least into having a switch. A US-only HuCard-only system is pretty fringe...

[turbogrfxfan]

doooooooooooode it would of been dope 10 yearsago but yeah no cd and the screan is prolly weak..  Imagine retro britin that thing!(is it white?)
that things been on e shitcrapbay for over a year now

[Paul]

u'd be better off just paying a 20 inch tv man lol or somehow buy the hookups to play it on ur current monitor

[Frank_fjs]

This thing has been collecting dust on eBay for ages.

Aside from the convenience of everything being incorporated, it displays a pure RGB signal. This is the only thing that appeals to me, but you can mod a console and watch it on a much larger scart TV for a fraction of the cost.

It's a cool piece of history, no doubt, but not worth its asking price.

This seller merely raids hard off stores and resells items at an inflated price on eBay to retro suckers, like us!

[Arkhan Asylum]

Theres no suckers on this forum.

that thing would be cool to have around to do devstuff on since its a system and monitor etc, all in one little thing.......


or I could just plug a coregrafx into a 1084 monitor.  same fucking thing.

[Frank_fjs]

I've been trying to track down a working 1084 monitor for an arcade pcb test rig, in my neck of the woods they are rare and often command big dollars.

I consider myself a sucker, the amount of money that I've sent to Japan for Japanese consoles is ridiculous, but I will never stop! Mind you, the main killer for me is the cost of EMS shipping but I wouldn't have large expensive items sent to me in any other way.

[Arkhan Asylum]

do you need one with an RGB din on it

and where do you live

Oh.  Australia.  Shit that sucks , cause I have 2 spare ones but shipping there would kill you.

[Frank_fjs]

Yep, living in Australia means that the shipping will always kill me.

I do plan on getting an RGB modded Duo, I have my eye on one but don't have the spare funds atm.

I run all my consoles via RGB where possible. I picked up a nice Grundig 82cm RGB scart cabable TV and have bought cables for all my retro consoles that natively output RGB.

Here's a comparison shot of my Mega Drive II console running in composite vs RGB, night and day really. The shots were taken via a digital camera so don't reflect the actual quality of the TV screen but they serve well as a comparison as both shots were taken identically.

[nat]

Interesting how that bar is green on composite and blue on RGB...

[Frank_fjs]

Yeah, composite video really sucks. It has a habit of creating a blurred, washed out mess. Colours are also misinterpreted as you pointed out. Compare the red vertical stripes in the shop window in the top/left of the image too. In RGB each line is clearly defined, in composite they all blur together.

This is what happens when you cram a video signal into a single cable. Why do you think all arcade machines, even the earliest ones, use an RGB video signal. Composite is only a minor step up from RF. Aside from the convenience of not having to tune in a channel and stereo sound, it (composite) has little benefit. Naturally, RF sucks ass as the video signal is crammed into an even worse cable which is prone to interference, you need to tune it in and to make matters worse, the same cable shares a (crappy mono) audio signal too.

To be fair though, some consoles output composite better than others. For example, the Super Nintendo actually has quite decent composite output whereas the Mega Drive has possibly the worst composite output. Interestingly, the white Japanese PC Engine, which only has RF out, still manages to output a really clean video signal. It's the only console that I know of that has great RF out.

I wouldn't recommend retro gaming on anything less than an S-Video cable. Component or RGB are the way to go though, where possible. You'd be surprised at how many retro consoles natively output an RGB signal. All you need is the right cable and a TV with an RGB scart socket. Off the top of my head, some consoles that output an RGB signal without modification are: Sega Master System, Sega Mega Drive, Sega Saturn, Sega Dreamcast, Super Nintendo, Neo Geo AES, Sony Playstation etc. For those that don't, you can either mod them to do so or in some cases an S-Video cable will exist, such is the case with some N64's.

Another option is video encoders but that's another lengthy discussion and I've probably already bored everyone here with this post.

[SignOfZeta]

The earliest arcade machines were black and white. The color ones are RGB because...why wouldn't they be? Converting to composite would be an extra step, a step which the monitor itself ends up undoing anyway.

Composite was created for the home video market because that's how home video formats stored the signal. Storing a signal as fat as RGB on analog tape would require a massive cassette with 5 lbs of 2" tape in it. There is nothing more native that composite for Laserdisc, to use another example. Since these were the highest form of input on 80s TVs, this is what the game machines put out.

And yeah, the quality of composite varies greatly. I recently started collecting Genesis for the first time since I traded my 1992 system in for a SNES. I put Bloodlines in and my word that is the fuzziest blurriest shit I've ever seen. I don't remember it being this bad. I used my C64 monitor mainly back in the day. Maybe that has a better composite circuit? None of my other systems look this bad. My PC Engines and Famiclones are pure as can be by comparison. The Saturn and SNES are amazing as well. Similarly there are some LD players with freakishly good composite.

I remember the Neo Geo having a pretty crap composite circuit, but the Neo Geo CD being much better.

[Mathius]

Yeah, composite video really sucks. It has a habit of creating a blurred, washed out mess. Colours are also misinterpreted as you pointed out. Compare the red vertical stripes in the shop window in the top/left of the image too. In RGB each line is clearly defined, in composite they all blur together.

This is what happens when you cram a video signal into a single cable. Why do you think all arcade machines, even the earliest ones, use an RGB video signal. Composite is only a minor step up from RF. Aside from the convenience of not having to tune in a channel and stereo sound, it (composite) has little benefit. Naturally, RF sucks ass as the video signal is crammed into an even worse cable which is prone to interference, you need to tune it in and to make matters worse, the same cable shares a (crappy mono) audio signal too.

To be fair though, some consoles output composite better than others. For example, the Super Nintendo actually has quite decent composite output whereas the Mega Drive has possibly the worst composite output. Interestingly, the white Japanese PC Engine, which only has RF out, still manages to output a really clean video signal. It's the only console that I know of that has great RF out.

I wouldn't recommend retro gaming on anything less than an S-Video cable. Component or RGB are the way to go though, where possible. You'd be surprised at how many retro consoles natively output an RGB signal. All you need is the right cable and a TV with an RGB scart socket. Off the top of my head, some consoles that output an RGB signal without modification are: Sega Master System, Sega Mega Drive, Sega Saturn, Sega Dreamcast, Super Nintendo, Neo Geo AES, Sony Playstation etc. For those that don't, you can either mod them to do so or in some cases an S-Video cable will exist, such is the case with some N64's.

Another option is video encoders but that's another lengthy discussion and I've probably already bored everyone here with this post.

You are not boring me one bit. I am trying to learn the best I can about RGB and SCART. I understand RF, composite, S-Video, and component well enough, but I don't know where to even start on getting my CRT TV, for example, to accept an RGB signal. It has all the major connections mentioned above, but I am still unsure what to do from there. I am happy as can be with S-Video out for my Neo Geo, but I would love to see my Genesis output RGB.

[Frank_fjs]

I don't know where to even start on getting my CRT TV, for example, to accept an RGB signal. It has all the major connections mentioned above, but I am still unsure what to do from there. I am happy as can be with S-Video out for my Neo Geo, but I would love to see my Genesis output RGB.

You'll notice the biggest difference on a Mega Drive, because as mentioned they are renown for having horrible composite output.

The first thing you need to do is determine whether your TV accepts an RGB signal. Not all TV's do, even ones with scart inputs. Some TV's have scart inputs but only accept a composite video signal, though this is rare.

So, does your TV have a scart input? What brand is it and what's its model number?

If your TV does have an RGB scart input, you will need to get an RGB scart cable to suit your Mega Drive. This is a link to a reputable eBay seller who sells high quality RGB cables (pcenginesales): http://myworld.ebay.com.au/pcenginesales&ssPageName=STRK:MEFSX:SELLERID <- She's a member of these forums too. Find a cable to suit your console, make sure it is RGB.

Then all you have to do is plug it in and you're away, as simple as that. Most TV's will auto detect the signal and switch to the appropriate AV mode. If not, there will be a setting to do so somewhere.

If your TV doesn't have a scart input, but does have component you can use a converter such as the CSY-2100 or for a cheaper equivalent the CVS-287. These devices take an RGB scart signal and convert it to component. This is the next best thing to an RGB scart connection. I have one myself but I much prefer a straight scart connection. They are prone to some image distortion, they're not perfect.

Another (more expensive) option for the Mega Drive is the XMD-3 from Micomsoft. The XMD-3 converts the Mega Drive's signal in to pure analogue RGB, it has S-Video out as well as an 8 pin + 15 pin analogue RGB connection.

[Mathius]

My TV does not have a scart input.

So if I were to get a CSY-2100 or CVS-287 it would essentially allow me to output my Genesis with component, negating modifying the console to output component directly? Does that make any sense?

[Frank_fjs]

The Mega Drive already outputs an RGB signal, no modding is required.

The CSY-2100 has a scart input and component output, so if you grab an RGB scart cable you will be able to run your Mega Drive via component through the CSY-2100. However, that would not be your best option as if your TV has a scart input you could simply plug the RGB scart cable from your Mega Drive directly into your TV. This eliminates the need for a CSY-2100 and will give you the best picture quality possible.

The CSY-2100 is mainly useful for people who don't have a scart TV.

[Mathius]

I am positive my TV won't output scart. It only goes up to component, unfortunately.

 So, what I asked earlier was will the signal coming from the CSY-2100, which is being inputted with the actual RGB signal coming from the Genesis, essentially be downgraded to a component signal, and not true RGB because my TV only inputs component?

[Frank_fjs]

You said in your post above that your TV has a scart input? You're TV doesn't need to output anything, it merely needs to accept a scart input, and if it has a scart plug it obviously does.

Component still utilises a separate RGB signal and is very close in quality to an RGB scart input. The genesis will output pure RGB via a scart cable, this RGB signal is fed into the CSY-2100 -> converted to component and output to your TV via its component input. So yes, the signal is downgraded but not by much, very little needs to be done to convert RGB to component as they are very similar signals.

I will say it again, if your TV has a scart input (rectangular 21 pin connection) then simply use that and don't worry about the CSY-2100. IF not, then component via the CSY-2100 is your best bet.

[SignOfZeta]

He lives in Indiana. He does not have SCART.

[Mathius]

Yeah, I am in the US so my TV isn't going to allow a scart connection. Thanks for the info though! I am a little clearer on all this madness.

[Arkhan Asylum]

SCART is like the HDMI of the 80s.   why we never got it is beyond me.   

[1980-20..]

SCART is like the HDMI of the 80s.   why we never got it is beyond me.  

Scart snd nipples you guys really are missing out.

[Arkhan Asylum]

What was that about nipples? lol

[1980-20..]

What was that about nipples? lol

I thought people in America weren't allowed to look at nipples!. Dont you have to put sticky tape over em or something. I think men nipples are allowed though.

[Mathius]

What was that about nipples? lol

I thought people in America weren't allowed to look at nipples!. Dont you have to put sticky tape over em or something. I think men nipples are allowed though.

Yeah, I got to make sure my girlfriend puts on that sticky tape before we fool around.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I look at nipples all the time man.  Dunno who told you that, but man were they dumb.

[1980-20..]

I look at nipples all the time man.  Dunno who told you that, but man were they dumb.

Sorry just my little attempt at humor, i really should stop.

[Arkhan Asylum]

lol, though a world without nipples and HDMI is a world I don't want to live in.

[SignOfZeta]

SCART is like the HDMI of the 80s.   why we never got it is beyond me.  

Not really. HDMI has a lot of advantages, but really it was invented solely because DVI didn't have HDCP built into it. The end product is certainly the most convenient and high end video standard for the home ever made, but that's just a side effect. It wasn't developed to be the best, it was developed was to lock down content.

SCART on the other hand...it really can't have been used by a very high percentage of the population. Its no mystery why it never was implemented in the US. The odd thing is that it was sold anywhere. Its only useful for RGB sources, and how many of those are there? Video games and...what else? Anything? And what video games? Mainly Sega consoles and low end home computers. The number of people who give a shit about having the highest output possible, and are Sega/Amiga fans is a pretty fucking small percentage of the population. It might be a lot larger in Europe, but its not even %1 of the US.

I really do hope HDMI is the last thing we have for a decade or so. That bullshit in the 90s/00s was stupid. Going from the previous high end of s-video+stereo+SPDIF to component+SPDIF to DVI+SPDIF to HDMI in less than 10 years leads to a lot of electronics in the landfill for no good reason. The cables! Shit! Miles of cables from the component era that are rather useless now.

[1980-20..]

I remember when the Saturn was released in the uk and it came boxed with only a scart cable, i was like scart wtf isscart i aint got no scart om my tv. I didnt buy mine on release i got it a couple of months later and everywhere had sold out of the Rf cables, i eventualy found one in a little independent game store.

[SignOfZeta]

Heh, I actually have a 1st party Saturn RF switch. I only have it because I'm H@rDc0Re though, and got a really good deal on it (ie: free). It's the only one I've ever seen, and I've only ever used it in hotels.

[Frank_fjs]

I think scart is great. It combined everything (audio/video) into the one cable long before HDMI ever came into existence.

There are more devices that utilise an RGB scart connection other than retro consoles. VCR's, DVD players, digital receivers, Foxtel etc.

Scart isn't big in my country (Australia), in fact, most people don't even know what it is. That said, you can still buy a TV with a scart input in Australia, even the new ones.

[SignOfZeta]

There is no such thing as an RGB VCR.

OK, here's where someone posts a link to some hella-L337 prosumer ED Beta unit with fully digital processing...

In broad usage though, if it doesn't have a CPU it isn't going to be putting out RGB.

[Duo_R]

The transcoder box will get you the best possible picture on the television you currently own.  Highly recommend going this route. I own two of these boxes and have posted details about them on these forums.

I am positive my TV won't output scart. It only goes up to component, unfortunately.

 So, what I asked earlier was will the signal coming from the CSY-2100, which is being inputted with the actual RGB signal coming from the Genesis, essentially be downgraded to a component signal, and not true RGB because my TV only inputs component?

[Frank_fjs]

I don't get the best signal out of my CSY-2100 on some systems, so I ended up getting a scart TV.

E.g. using it with my Mega Drive, the screen will flicker and react to things like flashing text ('press start' on a title screen etc). The colours are a little off too. Still a damn good option for people without a scart TV though.

Does anyone here know if the PC Engine (Core Grafx, Duo etc) actually outputs an RGB signal? I've heard that it does but it is simply not amplified, is this correct?

[SignOfZeta]

It doesn't output the signal at all, but it does exist internally so it can be hacked to output RGB, and yeah it will need to be amplified.

[Arkhan Asylum]

SCART is like the HDMI of the 80s.   why we never got it is beyond me.  

Not really. HDMI has a lot of advantages, but really it was invented solely because DVI didn't have HDCP built into it. The end product is certainly the most convenient and high end video standard for the home ever made, but that's just a side effect. It wasn't developed to be the best, it was developed was to lock down content.

SCART on the other hand...it really can't have been used by a very high percentage of the population. Its no mystery why it never was implemented in the US. The odd thing is that it was sold anywhere. Its only useful for RGB sources, and how many of those are there? Video games and...what else? Anything? And what video games? Mainly Sega consoles and low end home computers. The number of people who give a shit about having the highest output possible, and are Sega/Amiga fans is a pretty fucking small percentage of the population. It might be a lot larger in Europe, but its not even %1 of the US.

I really do hope HDMI is the last thing we have for a decade or so. That bullshit in the 90s/00s was stupid. Going from the previous high end of s-video+stereo+SPDIF to component+SPDIF to DVI+SPDIF to HDMI in less than 10 years leads to a lot of electronics in the landfill for no good reason. The cables! Shit! Miles of cables from the component era that are rather useless now.

I mean in the sense that it carries audio and video in one easy to shove into place cable.

The europeans sure do love them some SCART.

[Frank_fjs]

It doesn't output the signal at all, but it does exist internally so it can be hacked to output RGB, and yeah it will need to be amplified.

Thanks.