I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.

[shubibiman]

The SNES just sounds like everything is underwater.

That's so true. That's why I hate the SNES sound chip. When I hear explosions in shmups, it sounds like a baby shitting suddenly in his diaper.

[Tatsujin]

it sounds like a baby shitting suddenly in his diaper.

But which can be really noisy!

[_Paul]

I think the issue with the SNES sound chip is that it's the audio equivalent of the uncanny valley.

[JoshTurboTrollX]

- Super Adventure Island

I don't get the SNES sound chip hate.

[_Paul]

- Super Adventure Island

I don't get the SNES sound chip hate.

That's an example of great use of the SNES sound chip, most games don't sound like that. I don't deny that technically it's the most advanced of the generation, but I'd much rather have heard console sound develop more like the arcade sound chips of the day (Konami, Sega) than where Nintendo took it, which was a bridge between CD and cheap synth for the most part.

I like computery sounding sound. I still love C64 music more than 99% of the orchestral scores in games these days.

[CrackTiger]

Unfortunately the end result is incredibly un-incredible.

Just like the "real" thing!

- Super Adventure Island

I don't get the SNES sound chip hate.

There's a difference between being aware of it's shortcomings & imperfections and/or preferring system generated sound like MD & PCE... and outright hating it. The SNES sound discussion developed from the widely held perception that SNES is absolutely perfect and "CD quality" combined with straight up Genesis and TG-16 sound hate.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, SNES really was under vram'd. Not just mode 7, but mode 7 really could have used more vram. PCE and MD has 64k, SGX had 128k. All came out before the SFC. SFC should have had at least 128k of vram.

Definitely.  Even the MSX2 had 128k VRAM and it's from 1986. 

Why something that came out 4 years later had less VRAM is beyond me.

That mosaic in Metamor Jupiter could be bashed out pretty quickly.  It looks like they themselves slapped it out in under an hour, because it looks so craptastic.

[Tatsujin]

I like computery sounding sound. I still love C64 music more than 99% of the orchestral scores in games these days.

There's nothing more true than that!

[Arkhan Asylum]

IIRC the SFC mode-7 coud do only one playfield at time, walls would then have required more than one playfield.

I doubt it, I think it could be done with a single playfield.  Let's say the bottom half of the screen has each scanline scaled at a different percent to give the appearance of a tilted road.  Every scanline above the top half of the screen would have the same scaling percentage so it would have the appearance of a non-tilted wall.  I don't see why something like that couldn't be done, just as long as it doesn't try to rotate (which it still could, it would just look odd as hell).

Drakkhen does something kind of like that, I think.

I can't remember for sure since I haven't touched Drakkhen in awhile.... but the top half of the screen when you're running around has static mountains and stuff while the earth around you slides around on a tilt so it gives the illusion that you are walking around travelling far distances with epic scenery in the background.

It looked pretty alright from what I remember.  

[JoshTurboTrollX]

I like computery sounding sound. I still love C64 music more than 99% of the orchestral scores in games these days.

There's nothing more true than that!

I get that!  I guess I just grew to love each of the 16-bitters sounds!  All the strengths and weakness' of each.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I wonder what would have happened if the SNES had a FM chip in it instead.

[shubibiman]

- Super Adventure Island

I don't get the SNES sound chip hate.

What about sound FX and other games sounds and musics? One exemple out of a 2000 game library doesn't prove much to me. Most of the sounds and musics I heard from SNES games sounded like shit to me. Acyually, like Sunteam Paul, I prefer computary sounding sound. Most of SNES games music sound like cheap Casio synths from the 80's.

[JoshTurboTrollX]

- Super Adventure Island

I don't get the SNES sound chip hate.

What about sound FX and other games sounds and musics? One exemple out of a 2000 game library doesn't prove much to me. Most of the sounds and musics I heard from SNES games sounded like shit to me. Acyually, like Sunteam Paul, I prefer computary sounding sound. Most of SNES games music sound like cheap Casio synths from the 80's.

So you really want me to link to hundreds of examples of SNES games I think sound good?  The link I posted was more of a "hey, look at what the SNES was capable of"  I mean if they 'sound like shit' to you, then it sounds like shit to you.  Maybe I like the sound of Cheap casio synth sound from the 80's lol!  Check out (King Arthurs World, Lost Vikings, Super Turrican, Axelay, Super Adventure Island, and Actraiser) for a couple examples of SNES games I consider to have very good soundtracks. 

[spenoza]

The SNES APU used badly sounds like cheap MIDI, with less personalty and panache than "lesser" sound chips, but Actraiser is something that couldn't have been done in chiptunes on either the Genesis or PCE, and it's some of the best game music of the entire generation.

For all the SNES music I hate, Actraiser is pure auditory genius.

[_Paul]

The SNES APU used badly sounds like cheap MIDI, with less personalty and panache than "lesser" sound chips, but Actraiser is something that couldn't have been done in chiptunes on either the Genesis or PCE, and it's some of the best game music of the entire generation.

For all the SNES music I hate, Actraiser is pure auditory genius.

Hearing Actraiser for the first time was similar to when I first heard Bare Knuckle (Streets of Rage) on the MD. I could barely believe my ears.

[TurboXray]

I think the issue with the SNES sound chip is that it's the audio equivalent of the uncanny valley.

Ohh, that is a great analogy I definitely agree.

The SNES APU used badly sounds like cheap MIDI, with less personalty and panache than "lesser" sound chips, but Actraiser is something that couldn't have been done in chiptunes on either the Genesis or PCE, and it's some of the best game music of the entire generation.

For all the SNES music I hate, Actraiser is pure auditory genius.

One of my pet peeves (but probably not as big as arkhan pet peeve about it) is the way 'midi' is used to describe a type of sound. You must be referring to the AWE and later PC sound cards that used hardware sample based synth to playback midi (or the cpu soft synth packs for it), if you're referring the SNES. MIDI itself has no attached sound. But the word for me represents old Adlib and sound blaster-16 (opl3) midi playback. It is the most generic, thin, plastic-y <-> metallic-y instrument sound ever. Back in the 1989-1995, almost all PC games were midi and used generic FM defined instruments. So to me, if I had to attach a particularly type of sound to midi - it would be that. And that sounds nothing like SNES. At least you didn't say NES sounds like midi. I have no idea where people get that sound relation from.

 I haven't played Drakken in a long time, but if I recall the game doesn't use mode 7. The SNES can change any scanline to any of the 8 modes at any time. Mario Kart does this. The top mountains in the distance is mode 0 (for 4 BG layer mode, but also 2bit tile mode so it saves on vram).

[Arkhan Asylum]

HOW CAN MIDI SOUND CHEAP.  IT HAS NO SOUND.  GAHHHHHHHHHHH I HATE IT.

STOP DOING IT.

MIDI CAN BE USED TO CONTROL LIGHTS AND STUFF.  ITS JUST A STREAM OF INFORMATION.  NO SOUNDS ARE INVOLVED. GRAHTRJHJF;KLDJGADFG9034T04G09ERI90FDBIDFB9IFBDFBXVV*(#$&#($*#&$(#(*$(*($*(*(@^!@%!@!@

Cheap MIDI really means "The generic as balls General MIDI library often found in cheap keyboards, and built into Windows and other MIDI software as a way to get you started"

Insanity's redbook audio tracks are MIDI data.  The bass and lead channel is controlling a C64 ffs.  I forget what drum machine I used.  I moved on to a Roland DR-220 though.

That's right.  The bass and lead for Redbook Insanity music is a COMMODORE 64 SID CHIP. 

fuck yeah.


also, I don't attach MIDI to Adlib.  I attach "dumbasses who shouldn't have touched FM because it always sounds awful" to Adlib.   

Gah, so much wasted potential in any game with Adlib support.  It ALWAYS sounds retarded.  World of Xeen is the only exception I can think of.

and maybe Ultima games, with the music patched in....

[JoshTurboTrollX]

Hearing Actraiser for the first time was similar to when I first heard Bare Knuckle (Streets of Rage) on the MD. I could barely believe my ears.

That is what I thought of Legendary Axe II!! I swear on the Genny or SNES the soundtrack just wouldn't be the same!!  Love me the LEII musix!!

[_Paul]

That's right.  The bass and lead for Redbook Insanity music is a COMMODORE 64 SID CHIP. 

And that is why it is truly AWESOME.

[SignOfZeta]

Most of SNES games music sound like cheap Casio synths from the 80's.

For better or worse, most of the cheap Casio synths from the 80s couldn't even dream of doing the sounds the SNES makes. Honestly they sound more like Mega Drive since both were (often) PCM in nature. AND I'M NOT CONDEMNING EITHER SO DON'T CLIMB UP MY ASS, please. I'm just saying your reference is off.

[spenoza]

I thought of using the Uncanny Valley reference, and I think I did in one of my drafts before finally posting my earlier rambling mess of a thought process, but I'll quote myself here as I pretty much described my Uncanny Valley relationship to the SNES APU.

"PSG and FM sound tend to be very distinct and don't sound much like existing real world instruments, but SFC sampled sound could mimic said instruments closely enough that it was easy to compare to the real thing, and that sometimes led to disappointment, just as computer generated characters that look too much like real people actually create distance and seem creepier and less human than obviously unreal characters."

And yes, when I referred to "cheap MIDI" I was referring to crappy sound banks.

[SignOfZeta]

Unfortunately the end result is incredibly un-incredible.

Just like the "real" thing!

If this game looks as good as Macross or R-Type 3 on SFC to you then...you and I have a seriously different outlook on things. It looks horrible to me, and this is coming from a guy who actually kind of likes the game. Why would they...do what they did? Its that supposed to look that bad? I don't understand. I guess maybe they were trying to do a thing that looked like a SFC game but ended up with monkeys hitting rocks with sticks. Its crap.

[Tatsujin]

As always some peeps could get out very nice sounds out of the SFC (synth and sample mix).

The speaking is of good old legend Tim Follin:

Composition wise, it just sounds so c64ish .

[BlueBMW]

The best music ever can be made with Mario Paint.

[Arkhan Asylum]

The best music ever can be made with Mario Paint.

SQUIRREL.

I might change that project name to FUCKYEAH. lol

[JoshTurboTrollX]

As always some peeps could get out very nice sounds out of the SFC (synth and sample mix).

The speaking is of good old legend Tim Follin:

Composition wise, it just sounds so c64ish .

[Vecanti]

I don't think SNES music was better or worse.  At the time is was different than other game music.  The first time I played Mario and heard the echo it was awesome.  Zelda music I liked, Actraiser I thought was really awesome, but then everything sort of started sounding the same.  The keyboard reference is a good one.  It just seemed like a lot of the same instruments were always used like on a keyboard, Sound #2 Organ, Sound #17 Orchestra hit, and then the drums always seemed to some demo from a bad keyboard. 

It seemed more like it just had like these limited selection of default instruments that all game makers just selected from.  So everything just sound the same, but just musically arranged a littler different. 

Zelda is a good example.  I like the music, but it's a very typical MIDI music like feeling.  It's horns and strings, but not real smooth but more stepped/stuttered.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Zelda is a good example.  I like the music, but it's a very typical MIDI music like feeling.  It's horns and strings, but not real smooth but more stepped/stuttered.

I'm pretty sure there was a default set of sounds for the SNES with official devkits and crap to get you started.

Thats a big problem with sampled music. You hear it alot on the Amiga too..  You can hear definite retriggering.

Even when they sample PSG and stuff, it doesn't sound as smooth.

When real humans play acoustic instruments, its simple to blend things and not stutter/jerk around.


I like Mystic Quests tunes on SNES.   It was pretty rockin' even if it was corny.
and Secret of Mana

[Tatsujin]

Let's say most of the SFC/SNES musics have aged very badly. They were new and exciting back then, but if you lissen to them now, yo definitely can feel and recognize similarities and repeatings which more leeds to borings than excitement nowadays.

As already said, there are always exceptions from some mor talented musicians teams.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Kinda funny that SID tunes aged fine but SFC didn't and SFC is half as old.

[Tatsujin]

SID = analogue and therefore max. variable.
SPC = mostly given and therefore boring over time.

[Joe Redifer]

The speaking is of good old legend Tim Follin:

Composition wise, it just sounds so c64ish .

That sounded good until the drums started.  The sound quality of the drum hit sounds very bad (re: muffled).  The rest of the tune has ACTUAL HIGH FREQUENCIES  which the SNES is not known to produce very well.

[RyuHayabusa]

Come on, guys. I love the PC Engine too, but I think some of the fan boy talk is getting out of hand here. You show me a HuCard that sounds as good as Super Adventure Island, Axelay, Donkey Kong Country, or Chronotrigger and I'll eat my hat.

[shubibiman]

I hate how the SNES sound chip sounds. Period. I'm not saying the PCE's one is better, it's just that I prefer the way it sounds.
This is not being a fanboy, it's just having different tastes.

[grahf]

I personally think the SFC sounds amazing.
Why do people always hate on the echo? It adds a lot to the atmosphere in some games.

[Tatsujin]

I personally think the SFC sounds amazing.
Why do people always hate on the echo? It adds a lot to the atmosphere in some games.

It can sound amazing if it is in the right hands, but unfortunately that wasn't the case for like 94% of all its games.

[BlueBMW]

I regularly listen to video game music (because I'm just that geeky I guess)  My ipod is packed with nothing but game tunes...  the SFC/SNES games I really like the soundtracks to are the following...

Donkey Kong Country 1 and 2 (some of this music is just excellent IMO)
Megaman X, X2, and X3 (Again some excellent stuff here)
Fzero (luv luv luv)

But then again I also have some NES game soundtracks (mostly the megaman games) and a few Genesis titles (the sonics, outrun 2019) and of course some TG/PCE tracks (Alien/Devils crush, Drac X, Sapphire, LoT, GoT, Splash Lake, Ys 1/2)

Whether SFC/SNES is better or worse, or has aged well or not, I still listen to it for pleasure.

[spenoza]

I personally think the SFC sounds amazing.
Why do people always hate on the echo? It adds a lot to the atmosphere in some games.

Used properly, absolutely. There are some games in which the echo/reverb is awesome. But so many games used it just because they could. There were a lot of tunes where the samples and melodies weren't suited at all to the reverb settings chosen. The end result is that a lot of SNES games sound like a "metal waste bin" or "empty tile bathroom" filter was applied to the output.

[spenoza]

I regularly listen to video game music (because I'm just that geeky I guess)  My ipod is packed with nothing but game tunes...  the SFC/SNES games I really like the soundtracks to are the following...

Donkey Kong Country 1 and 2 (some of this music is just excellent IMO)
Megaman X, X2, and X3 (Again some excellent stuff here)
Fzero (luv luv luv)

But then again I also have some NES game soundtracks (mostly the megaman games) and a few Genesis titles (the sonics, outrun 2019) and of course some TG/PCE tracks (Alien/Devils crush, Drac X, Sapphire, LoT, GoT, Splash Lake, Ys 1/2)

Whether SFC/SNES is better or worse, or has aged well or not, I still listen to it for pleasure.

There was a time when I did this, too. From time to time, I still do. The MMX series would never have made my queue, though. The tunes were interesting, but the over-reliance on really crappy electric guitar synths was just painful.

My SFC list would include:

Actraiser
Actraiser 2
Super Castlevania IV
Hyperzone
Joe and Mac
Ys III (yes, I do like the SFC renditions of those tunes)
A couple tunes from Pilotwings (but not most of them)
UN Squadron (for some reason the crappy guitar synths don't bother me as much here, but then, the crappy guitar synth tunes aren't my favorite)

And there are some NES tunes that I definitely love, like almost anything from a Natsume or Sunsoft title.

[nectarsis]

Come on, guys. I love the PC Engine too, but I think some of the fan boy talk is getting out of hand here. You show me a HuCard that sounds as good as Super Adventure Island, Axelay, Donkey Kong Country, or Chronotrigger and I'll eat my hat.

Wouldn't touting personal OPINION that the SNES kills the PCE sound wise be JUST as fanboyish?  

[esteban]

Come on, guys. I love the PC Engine too, but I think some of the fan boy talk is getting out of hand here. You show me a HuCard that sounds as good as Super Adventure Island, Axelay, Donkey Kong Country, or Chronotrigger and I'll eat my hat.

Pick some SFC/Super Nintendo games that actually have a soundtrack worthy of the humble Dungeon Explorer and we will see.

[Ceti Alpha]

Come on, guys. I love the PC Engine too, but I think some of the fan boy talk is getting out of hand here. You show me a HuCard that sounds as good as Super Adventure Island, Axelay, Donkey Kong Country, or Chronotrigger and I'll eat my hat.

Wouldn't touting personal OPINION that the SNES kills the PCE sound wise be JUST as fanboyish? 

Not only that, but more importantly, are you going to post video of you eating your hat? 

Chretien Wants Teh Proof

[nectarsis]

Come on, guys. I love the PC Engine too, but I think some of the fan boy talk is getting out of hand here. You show me a HuCard that sounds as good as Super Adventure Island, Axelay, Donkey Kong Country, or Chronotrigger and I'll eat my hat.

Wouldn't touting personal OPINION that the SNES kills the PCE sound wise be JUST as fanboyish?  

Not only that, but more importantly, are you going to post video of you eating your hat?  

Chretien Wants Teh Proof

Ah yes the PWOOF is needed 

[Arkhan Asylum]

Wouldn't touting personal OPINION that the SNES kills the PCE sound wise be JUST as fanboyish? 

Theres no such thing as PCE Fanboys.  Everyone that has blind love for the PCE is just one with mother earth.


Unlike those jackass SNES/MD fanboys!

[TurboXray]

I personally think the SFC sounds amazing.
Why do people always hate on the echo? It adds a lot to the atmosphere in some games.

The dislike for it, was early on for me. It comes from the fact that they used it EVERY where and when it had no appropriate setting. They used just to use it. It's a bit like tacky mode 7, except it was everywhere in a lot of games. Annoyed the crap out of me. For some sound FX, it just sounds completely wrong - even if the setting was in a cave. Explosions that had it sounded the worst.

[CrackTiger]

Come on, guys. I love the PC Engine too, but I think some of the fan boy talk is getting out of hand here. You show me a HuCard that sounds as good as Super Adventure Island, Axelay, Donkey Kong Country, or Chronotrigger and I'll eat my hat.

Wouldn't touting personal OPINION that the SNES kills the PCE sound wise be JUST as fanboyish?  

Although, many people have been surprisingly harsh discussing the SNES sound, I don't think that anyone actually said anything as extreme as 'no SNES games sound as good as these PCE games'.

It's all about personal taste. I could list games that sound nicer to me (for example, Somer Assault sounds perfect for an Adventure Island game), but if someone already has a personal benchmark of specific games worth eating a hat over, I really don't think that anything else will come close for them.

Pick some SFC/Super Nintendo games that actually have a soundtrack worthy of the humble Dungeon Explorer and we will see.

How about Crystal Beans.

[Joe Redifer]

I have been recording cartridge game music for a loooong time.  I have over 10 CDs-worth so far.  I always record it from real hardware which means I am not always able to record each game due to a lack of sound tests (oh how I would love a CD that let me play HuCard music from games that don't have sound tests).  The only time I ever used emulation in a recording was for about 1.5 seconds in a short Ristar tune to remove where the voice said "c'mon" because it sounded cheesy and the voice samples in that game are horrendous and embarrassing, but the rest of the recorded tune was from real hardware and you can notice my fine mixing of 1.5 seconds of emulation in (mainly because that part is virtually silent other than the crap voice).  I wish all games had sound tests.  Also, I hate sound tests which make a sound when you press the button to start playing the music (looking at you Wave Race 64).  

About SNES reverb:  It was used a lot to cover up the poor and mushy sample rate.  For example, in Tales of Phantasia there is an opening song which is sung by some bitch.  The sound test gives you the option to turn the reverb off and if you do, it turns into complete mushy sludge.  The reverb makes it so it at least SEEMS like it has some semblance of high frequencies (treble).  But at the same time it sounds like I am listening to the song in a cave.  Half of one, six dozen of the other, I guess.

[CrackTiger]

I have been recording cartridge game music for a loooong time.  I have over 10 CDs-worth so far.  I always record it from real hardware which means I am not always able to record each game due to a lack of sound tests (oh how I would love a CD that let me play HuCard music from games that don't have sound tests).

There are HES rips of the PSG soundtracks from pretty much every HuCard and CD game that was released. The only exceptions seem to be soundtracks that mixed in ADPCM. There is a utility that will turn any of them into a sound test rom that you can play on real hardware using a flash card.

[RyuHayabusa]

Wouldn't touting personal OPINION that the SNES kills the PCE sound wise be JUST as fanboyish? 

I never said that the SNES kills the PCE soundwise. I am saying that the SNES sound hardware is superior, and in the right hands can do things that the PCE can't come close to. I'm not an SNES fanboy either. I have a Supergrafx in the box, a PCE CDRom2 in the box, Coregrafx in the box, white PCE, 2 Turbografx-16s, the Turbo CD, Arcade Card Pro, and a shit load of games. I love the PCE as much as anyone here, I just couldn't help but notice everybody poo-pooing the SNES not only in this thread but the MD/SFC/PCE comparison thread.

[Joe Redifer]

BT - the only problem with that is I don't have a flash card.  Lemme borrow yours!  But you bring up an interesting question... does any music actually mix the ADPCM into it for instruments?  I know Sega CD games do this a lot when there is chip-based music on a CD game.  Also, if the interface unit is attached, why couldn't the ADPCM be played anyway?