I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.

[Tatsujin]

Not the dumbest review

[SignOfZeta]

I love how the SNES is supposedly the "most powerful" but it's by far the slowest of the three.

Yeah, the CPU clock speed is pathetic, which is (I assume) why the shooter selection is so terrible on SNES, but true transparencies and mode 7 are completely and totally beyond the PCE and MD. Shooters run slow or flicker on the SNES, but Yoshi's Island, at any speed, is just a pipe dream to the other two systems (and the Neo Geo) thanks to the special video hardware, not to mention the audio (think: Earthbound/Bother2). Completely impossible on PCE/MD.

Here is where some deaf blind douche chimes in trying to tell me that flicker/interlace tricks are transparencies and reverb is for gays. Go on, say it. You know you have to.

[nectarsis]

I love how the SNES is supposedly the "most powerful" but it's by far the slowest of the three.

Yeah, the CPU clock speed is pathetic, which is (I assume) why the shooter selection is so terrible on SNES, but true transparencies and mode 7 are completely and totally beyond the PCE and MD. Shooters run slow or flicker on the SNES, but Yoshi's Island, at any speed, is just a pipe dream to the other two systems (and the Neo Geo) thanks to the special video hardware, not to mention the audio (think: Earthbound/Bother2). Completely impossible on PCE/MD.

Here is where some deaf blind douche chimes in trying to tell me that flicker/interlace tricks are transparencies and reverb is for gays. Go on, say it. You know you have to.

Didn't someone (ccovell) show "impossible" transparencies on the PCE..Zelda Link to the Past IIRC?

[SuperDeadite]

Yeah, but the SuperFX games aren't powered by the SNES, it's the cart itself that does all the work.  The other consoles could have had such upgrades, they just didn't bother, except a few exceptions like Virtua Racing.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Mudash vs. Turbobdash!



Really though, what "bit" thing was the thing they used?  Some use the graphics chip, others the CPU, others just make shit up.   What chip is the determiner?

Cause the C64 for example is an 8bit CPU, but has an uh... I think its 12bit graphics bus.   So is it a 12 bit machine swimming in a sea of 8 bit competition? *shrug* Who cares.  The games suck!   Muddy, chunky nonsense with drab colors! Woo.

The Genesis has a 16bit CPU that operates at the same speed as the PCE.  Give or take some hz that are negligible.  7mhz.  That's cool and all.  How many bits is the graphics chip. 

The HuC6280A is "8bits", thats nice.  It has 16 bit features inside since its a coked out 6502 variant, and addresses a 16 bit and a 21 bit bus, and the video chips are 16 bits.  What the fuck number are we using here?  Most of it is pretty frigging irrelevant since the average player doesn't really know or care what kind of numbers are going on inside the machine.

Long story short, the bit-war comparisons are retarded.  Use your frigging eyes.  Pick the shinier, funner to play one.  More often than not, I will pick a PCE version of a game over a Genesis one.

That doesn't mean I don't like the Genesis.  I like them both.  Usually it boils down to I prefer the PCE's sound over the Genesis. 

The Genesis has way better hardware scrolling, and better processing since its a frigging 68k, but really, the color limitations usually result in ass on screen where there could have been magic.  Some companies overcame this shit (Ristar).  It also got cursed with FM, which when used wrong (IREM), results in some pretty frigging lame sound.  It's great when done right (Microcabin!) but man... if you just wing it, you get scratchy, farty, awfulness.




Anyone else see the whole bit war thing as a total waste of time?  I grew up with NES, TG, Genesis and SNES.   I Just wanted to play games and didn't care wtf was going on inside the machine, lol.

[Gogan]

Couldn't agree more Ark

[SignOfZeta]

Didn't someone (ccovell) show "impossible" transparencies on the PCE..Zelda Link to the Past IIRC?

Yeah, he posted a Youtube vid. I'm pretty sure it was SGX, and a feature totally unused by any retail game so...its not like you could ever actually experience this capability. I also don't remember how this effect was achieved, via some sort of super duper flicker, or if it really was a true transparency. Its pretty much impossible to tell on Youtube since very few capture devices actually capture flicker properly, but it sure looked good.

He may have given us a ROM, but I'm pretty sure I never tried it out since I'm too stupid to use emulators, SGX compatible ones anyway.

[nectarsis]

Didn't someone (ccovell) show "impossible" transparencies on the PCE..Zelda Link to the Past IIRC?

Yeah, he posted a Youtube vid. I'm pretty sure it was SGX, and a feature totally unused by any retail game so...its not like you could ever actually experience this capability. I also don't remember how this effect was achieved, via some sort of super duper flicker, or if it really was a true transparency. Its pretty much impossible to tell on Youtube since very few capture devices actually capture flicker properly, but it sure looked good.

He may have given us a ROM, but I'm pretty sure I never tried it out since I'm too stupid to use emulators, SGX compatible ones anyway.

Just because it wasn't in a retail game =/= "but true transparencies and mode 7 are completely and totally beyond the PCE and MD."  It obviously COULD be done ( at least SGFX).

[NecroPhile]

Yoshi's Island, at any speed, is just a pipe dream to the other two systems (and the Neo Geo) thanks to the special video hardware...

Yoshi's Island isn't doable on a 'plain' SNES either; who knows if the SVP (or some such chip in a HuCard) could've provided the same experience, minus the color depth obviously.  That's just a poor example though, as the idea holds true for F-Zero, Super Mario Kart, etc., although the Sega CD's scaling and rotation capabilities exceed those of the SNES.

... not to mention the audio (think: Earthbound/Bother2).

Indeed.  The SPC700 can produce some amazing tunes, but redbook can be even better and without tons of expensive ram chips.

[Ceti Alpha]

And where does the SuperGrafx fit in? Technically, it puts the Genesis to shame in almost all areas of video. The Genesis being a 'true' 16bit console because of its cpu and the SGX not, makes the Genesis rather pathetic in that context. Calling the TG16 a 16bit imposter is rather silly.

That's an excellent point. How can anyone, in all seriousness, call the SGX an 8bit system? And even if you want to label it an 8bit system out of some sort of weird stubbornness, it only makes the Genesis and SNES look ridiculous for being supposedly "twice" the system, yet having games that look relatively the same.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Indeed.  The SPC700 can produce some amazing tunes, but redbook can be even better and without tons of expensive ram chips.

What would be funny is to use Genesis hardware to make music, capture as wave, and put on redbook for a PCE cd game.

hmmm....



We can call it "The hardware is sleepy right now and feels like half assing it" mode.   All great hardware deserves a nap.

[SignOfZeta]

Just because it wasn't in a retail game =/= "but true transparencies and mode 7 are completely and totally beyond the PCE and MD."  It obviously COULD be done ( at least SGFX). 

Mode 7 is so beyond the PCE its not even funny. Transparencies...may be a different story, so let me rephrase this.

"While it might not be totally impossible for the PCE to do real transparencies of some sort, it is totally impossible for anyone to play any retail game that has them on a PCE because none exist."

Again, if its only possible in theory, its as good as impossible.

[SignOfZeta]

Indeed.  The SPC700 can produce some amazing tunes, but redbook can be even better and without tons of expensive ram chips.

Obviously redbook is better in theory, but its really sad how many redbook CD soundtracks are just garbage. Also, redbook isn't dynamic. It can't transition for shit, and in fact halts the entire system when the laser moves on a PCE.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Mode 7 is so beyond the PCE its not even funny. Transparencies...may be a different story, so let me rephrase this.

Done on a Turbo R R800 processor  (7mhz), and the same video chip as the MSX2+.

So...

fuck yeah.

Obviously redbook is better in theory, but its really sad how many redbook CD soundtracks are just garbage. Also, redbook isn't dynamic. It can't transition for shit, and in fact halts the entire system when the laser moves on a PCE.

No it doesn't.  When the laser re-seeks an audio track to loop it, does your game freeze?  noooo.  It doesn't.

If the laser moves it halts the audio... but it doesn't halt the system.

[NecroPhile]

Obviously redbook is better in theory, but its really sad how many redbook CD soundtracks are just garbage.

No less sad is how many chip tunes are utter shit (SNES, Genny, PCE, it doesn't matter).  Did you have a point?

Also, redbook isn't dynamic. It can't transition for shit, and in fact halts the entire system when the laser moves on a PCE.

That's akin to arguing that the SNES is superior to the PCE CD games simply because it doesn't have load times,and that's just silly; plus like Ark said, only the music halts.  Besides, using redbook and chip tunes together makes for pretty dandy transitions, such as when some RPGs mute the overworld redbook, play nice chippy tunes during battles, then back to the redbook at battle's end.

Mode 7 is so beyond the PCE its not even funny.

Equally funny is how the PCE's CPU is so far beyond the SNES's.  Is it just me, or is it pointless to argue that one machine is head and shoulders above the crowd based on a single capability?

[Tatsujin]

Again, if its only possible in theory, its as good as impossible.

Nice, so I'm expecting hoverboards, light sabers and nuclear fusion powered cars just within the next couple of years.

[Tatsujin]

Equally funny is how the PCE's CPU is so far beyond the SNES's.  Is it just me, or is it pointless to argue that one machine is head and shoulders above the crowd based on a single capability?

What I always think is the most funny part is the fact that the PCE came out more then 3 years eralier than the SFC and even had CD-ROM media 2 years before the SFC was released.
So taking this enermous time gap into considerations, the SFC is more than a wimpy hardware compared.

[blueraven]

Equally funny is how the PCE's CPU is so far beyond the SNES's.  Is it just me, or is it pointless to argue that one machine is head and shoulders above the crowd based on a single capability?

What I always think is the most funny part is the fact that the PCE came out more then 3 years eralier than the SFC and even had CD-ROM media 2 years before the SFC was released.

So taking this enermous time gap into considerations, the SFC is more than a wimpy hardware compared.

Quoted for Joe Redifer.

[Tatsujin]

frowsy work blew!! you have forgotten one.

[TurboXray]

Just because it wasn't in a retail game =/= "but true transparencies and mode 7 are completely and totally beyond the PCE and MD."  It obviously COULD be done ( at least SGFX).

Mode 7 is so beyond the PCE its not even funny. Transparencies...may be a different story, so let me rephrase this.

"While it might not be totally impossible for the PCE to do real transparencies of some sort, it is totally impossible for anyone to play any retail game that has them on a PCE because none exist."

Again, if its only possible in theory, its as good as impossible.

So a demo doesn't qualify as real? Only theory?

 Genesis can do mode 7. Real scaling/rotation F-Zero style mode 7. It's in the new Piew Solar game. People have talked about how Fonzie, one of the programmers for the game, made a racer demo that used ripped F-Zero maps. The PCE could probably do something similar, if the Genesis can do it. It's not full res on the Genesis, but it's smooth and impressive looking. And it's mode 7.

[Emerald Rocker]

Wow, this thread blew up.  Guess I should post more often!

I would just like to point out that nowhere did I say the number of bits determines which system is better.  Ceti Alpha said it was ridiculous to call the TG-16 a 16-bit imposter, I said it's not ridiculous, and then a bunch of people said "it's about the games" which is totally missing the point.  Did I ever say it wasn't about the games?  All I said was that I thought the TG-16 was deceptively marketed and that the Genesis is more capable (aside from onscreen colors).  Necromancer makes a good point, but no one back then based "bits" on the graphic chips, so that subtlety was lost on the 16-bit generation.

Energy sucks.

[Tatsujin]

The c64 could do mode-7 effex (zoom in-and out and rotate a playfield simultaneous). the question is what is mode-7 exactly and how to do it?
you can do almost any visual effex with progamming tricks on any existing platforms. but some platform can output it easily and directly from its hardware and other have do be tricked to do similar things.
therefore the MD has no hardware mode-7 as the SFC has.

PCE has no hardware parallax? yes.
PCE has no parallax? bullshit, it's just more tricky than doing it on the MD, but it is possible.

[Emerald Rocker]

Blast Processing is a marketing term. How can that be a real thing?

"Blast processing" and "our system has the highest clock speed" are synonymous.  Back in those days, it was pretty obvious what "blast processing" really meant if you watched the commercials and thought about the SNES' weaknesses.

For the SNES, Nintendo chose to use the actual term Mode 7, but they could have called it "spinzoom tech" and it would still represent a real thing that distinguished their system from others of its day.

EDIT:

Genesis can do mode 7.

Actually no, it can't.  Genesis games can do scaling and rotation, and often did both better than SNES games, but that's different from the Genesis as a system "doing Mode 7".

[Tatsujin]

I think it's about time for teh..

/pcebread.jpg

 

[BlueBMW]

/pcebread.jpg

Quoted for truth   No bread.. nice

[Ceti Alpha]

I would just like to point out that nowhere did I say the number of bits determines which system is better.  Ceti Alpha said it was ridiculous to call the TG-16 a 16-bit imposter, I said it's not ridiculous, and then a bunch of people said "it's about the games" which is totally missing the point.  Did I ever say it wasn't about the games?  All I said was that I thought the TG-16 was deceptively marketed and that the Genesis is more capable (aside from onscreen colors).  Necromancer makes a good point, but no one back then based "bits" on the graphic chips, so that subtlety was lost on the 16-bit generation.

Energy sucks.

I'm still not sure how the Genesis is more capable.

And just curious, but was the NES, Master System, and the 7800 all regularly referred to as "8bit" systems? I only really remember the whole bit thing becoming an issue with the 16bit consoles.

[TurboXray]

Blast Processing is a marketing term. How can that be a real thing?

"Blast processing" and "our system has the highest clock speed" are synonymous.  Back in those days, it was pretty obvious what "blast processing" really meant if you watched the commercials and thought about the SNES' weaknesses.

Synonymous, eh? A lot of youths growing up didn't see it that way. Just look over old Sega-16 posts. People (kids back then) thought it was something special inside the Genesis that made it faster and came to the forum asking for answers (because of being told it was just marketing later on). It was easier to make up a term/saying than trying to describe the advantages the Genesis higher clock cpu had and other blah-blah advantages in a commercial. Companies still do similar today. The general public is fairly ignorant of such things and gullible at the same time. Sega's commercial are a perfect case in point. Not matter how you look at it, a marketing term is just what it is. To pretend it's something else is silly. Even on the Sega-16 forums, people kid about that term all the time. No one ever takes that term as serious and 'real'. Or some special feature of the Genesis.

For the SNES, Nintendo chose to use the actual term Mode 7, but they could have called it "spinzoom tech" and it would still represent a real thing that distinguished their system from others of its day.

Uhm, the SNES has 8 configurable display modes. Each mode had something special/unique about it. No other console had this kind of setup, thus you didn't see this kind of talk and terms (though home computers did). The modes are 0 to 7. Mode 7 happens to be... mode 7. And it's just simple rotation and scaling. Perspective scaling, as most people think of mode 7, is actually a software thing. The cpu is changing the scaler register on each scanline. The hardware doesn't automatically tilt the BG layer on the X axis.

EDIT:

Genesis can do mode 7.

Actually no, it can't.  Genesis games can do scaling and rotation, and often did both better than SNES games, but that's different from the Genesis as a system "doing Mode 7".

So it's perfectly OK to use the term Blast Processing in the most serious sense, but completely incorrect to use the term mode 7 to simply describe a common SNES looking 3D perspective playfield?  I've played a lot of Genesis games. I can't think of a single old game where you would consider the BG scaling/rotation/perspective correction is done better on the Genesis. Pier Solar is the only game that does it:

And it's low resolution at that (lower frame rate too, but still impressive).

[Emerald Rocker]

So it's perfectly OK to use the term Blast Processing in the most serious sense, but completely incorrect to use the term mode 7 to simply describe a common SNES looking 3D perspective playfield?

No one uses "blast processing" unless they're referring to the Genesis, so I don't understand your question.  Of course it's incorrect to call a non-SNES thing "mode 7".

[Arkhan Asylum]

I would just like to point out that nowhere did I say the number of bits determines which system is better.  Ceti Alpha said it was ridiculous to call the TG-16 a 16-bit imposter, I said it's not ridiculous,

Yeah we know.  The whole bit-wars tangent just kinda happened on its own due to the bit wars being mentioned at all.  

and then a bunch of people said "it's about the games" which is totally missing the point.  Did I ever say it wasn't about the games?  

its just a new tangent.  We've got like 30 tangents in this thread, including one about Joe Redifer.   The its about the games point is just another argument showing how stupid the bit comparing is.  Games with more bits *cough* atari jaguar *cough cough* weren't always super jawesome.

All I said was that I thought the TG-16 was deceptively marketed and that the Genesis is more capable (aside from onscreen colors).  Necromancer makes a good point, but no one back then based "bits" on the graphic chips, so that subtlety was lost on the 16-bit generation.

Only ignorant jackasses actually believed any of that number crap marketing people used, I think.  

Actually no, it can't.  Genesis games can do scaling and rotation, and often did both better than SNES games, but that's different from the Genesis as a system "doing Mode 7".

Yknow, Mode 7 is just scaling and rotating right?   Its just called Mode 7 on the SFC because its the 8th mode the chip does. (7th counting from 0).  The math behind it is pretty simple.  I think everyone just says "oh it can do mode 7" because if you say "scaling and rotating" some people are like "what?" and then you go "Mario Kart" and they go OH MODE 7?

[Tatsujin]

fact is, mode-7 became a synonym for rotating and scaling sprites and playfileds very smoothly, since that term appeared initialy in the world of SFC hardware specs. there is also nothing wrong with it to actually use it as such a term in general.
but peeps with some brains do refer it more to a hardware ability of a platform than a tricky software solution, which only is a "mode-7" look-a-like.

[Vecanti]

Blast Processing is a marketing term. How can that be a real thing?

"Blast processing" and "our system has the highest clock speed" are synonymous.  Back in those days, it was pretty obvious what "blast processing" really meant if you watched the commercials and thought about the SNES' weaknesses.

For the SNES, Nintendo chose to use the actual term Mode 7, but they could have called it "spinzoom tech" and it would still represent a real thing that distinguished their system from others of its day.

EDIT:

Genesis can do mode 7.

Actually no, it can't.  Genesis games can do scaling and rotation, and often did both better than SNES games, but that's different from the Genesis as a system "doing Mode 7".

I get the jist of what you are saying, but what is "blast processing" other than a marketing term?  You know what I mean?  Like, what technically in hardware or specific process would that refer to?

If Nintendo used the term "spinzoom" you could say, well spin zoom is mode7.  Mode7 is an actual technical hardware mode where you modify the scaling and positioning of a layer on a scanline-by-scanline basis. (mode7 only works on BGs not on sprites btw)


As far as bits and speed, the Genesis 7MHz 68000 pales in comparison to the PCE 7mhz 65c02.  You hear all the time about CPU "pipelining" these days, but that technology has been around forever.  The 65c02 is pipelined.  Meaning it can do two different but overlapping tasks in one cycle. The 68000, for example, requires four clock periods to read or write data to and from memory, the 65c02 requires only one clock period. A 1MHZ 65c02 has a throughput unmatched by the 68000 until it's clock rate is up to 4MHZ.  The true measure of the relative speed of various microprocessors can only be made by comparing how long each takes, in it's own machine code, to complete the same operation.

[Joe Redifer]

fact is, mode-7 became a synonym for rotating and scaling sprites and playfileds very smoothly

Playfields, yes.  Sprites, no.  The SNES cannot scale or rotate sprites in the hardware.  That's why games that use Mode 7 like F-Zero or Mario Kart have objects that bump forward like an NES game, no scaling, just animated sprites.  The funny thing is that even Sonic CD's bonus rounds did this and it had the ability to scale the "sprites".  Just look at Batman Returns... it scales and rotates everything.  But then again, Japan was not able to do much with the CD hardware because they were n00bs.

[Tatsujin]

I always thought the general ips of the pce are higher than the ips of an MD.

[Tatsujin]

fact is, mode-7 became a synonym for rotating and scaling sprites and playfileds very smoothly

Playfields, yes.  Sprites, no.  The SNES cannot scale or rotate sprites in the hardware.  That's why games that use Mode 7 like F-Zero or Mario Kart have objects that bump forward like an NES game, no scaling, just animated sprites. 

Joe and Goban, you are right. I forgot about that. my bad.

[Vecanti]

I always thought the general ips of the pce are higher than the ips of an MD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instructions_per_second

They list the 6502 doing 1MIPS @ just 2MHz.  The same number of instructions takes the 68000 8MHz.


Again, real world speed comparison comes down to how fast each CPU can complete the same operations. But with number of instructions running at 4X the 68000, the 65c02 is a beast.

[Otaking]

I love how the SNES is supposedly the "most powerful" but it's by far the slowest of the three.

Yeah, the CPU clock speed is pathetic, which is (I assume) why the shooter selection is so terrible on SNES,

Small selection yes, but what it does have is a small selection of incredibly good shmups, which in my opinion in quality beats the much larger selection of Megadrive shmups.

Axelay
Area 88 (Capcom's finest 2D shmup)
R-Type III: Third Lightning (best R-Type ever, simply amazing)
Super Aleste (brilliant Compile game, much better than the mediocre Musha Aleste)
Macross Scrambled Valkyrie (one of the finest shmups ever, tons of sprites on screen with no slowdown, trounces over the average PCE & Saturn Macross games)
Flying Hero
Sonic Wings
Gokujou Parodius, jikkyou Oshaberi Parodius and Parodius Da
Cotton 100%
Pop 'n Twinbee

[spenoza]

You know, this joke-cum-WTF thread has got me thinking about the various trade-offs made by the various console makers of the time. A lot of this is conjecture. I'm not a (good or practicing) programmer, but I do understand programming pretty well. I'm also a hardware junkie. Still, I've made a lot of guesses and assumptions here, and I look forward to being ripped to shreds.

Hudson/NEC based their system on a widespread and effective CPU core design with well-established audio capabilities and a graphics chip designed to push sprites and make pretty colors. It was a much more powerful and effective combination than the hardware used in the NES or Sega Mark III, and yet it was very much a direct evolution of them. The CPU was clocked faster and featured a few extra registers, but it was very similar to the NES in that it used the same 6502 core. The sound capabilities were improved, but again, rather directly evolved from predecessors. The graphics chip displayed many more colors and was more sprite capable, but it was still just sprites and a single background tileset. Though it lacked any accommodations for special effects, each component of the system was significantly more powerful than the individual components of those in systems of the previous generation. Perhaps Hudson's biggest compromise, however, was the dearth of available RAM in the system. RAM was expensive, and thus selecting limited RAM caches for the system was likely a cost decision. It could be argued that the PC Engine was the most basic and simple of the 16-bit generation systems, and it owed its design most closely to that which came immediately before it in the home console and computer space, including the necessity of developers to use optimized code to get good results, especially given the limited program RAM space. Then again, NES developers were used to working with 6502 code and even more limited RAM space, so in a sense, the system was catered to them as a distinct upgrade path. All your pre-existing NES programming skills will transfer, only you have more power, more RAM, more sprites, and more colors! Some early PCE games were clearly the product of developers who saw the PCE as simply a slightly more powerful NES. Good developers learned that the system was quite a bit more powerful, and as a result was more flexible than the NES. This said, the power of the PCE was wholly dependent upon the programmer to tease out, meaning the games library varies widely in quality. It would have been nice to have seem a few extra effects or features added into the hardware mix, but it's hard to complain about a system which is tightly designed and relatively capable. The PCE does what it was designed to do quite well, and only truly suffers in lack of RAM.

Sega seemed to go a different direction. Sega had a lot of arcade experience, and as a result of having a strong library of arcade titles it made sense they'd go more that route. Arcade hardware was often highly customized with varied capabilities. They used a stock CPU that was widespread in arcade boards, the 68k. The CPU isn't necessarily any faster than the one in the PCE as far as raw performance goes, but it's easier to develop for, what with being C friendly, and Sega's own arcade devs were already familiar with it. One can only assume that, even though the 68000 was stock and not a custom chip, that it was still more expensive as it was a more complex design and the core architecture more recent. In PC audio and arcades FM synth was starting to make a splash due to the unique sound, so Sega decided to throw in an FM-capable chipset along with a basic PSG chipset, and even a co-processor to help manage them (which makes one wonder about the troubles the Genesis has playing clear digital sound samples in some circumstances). Sega's arcade bias even showed when designing graphics capabilities. They decided they could get away with fewer colors onscreen (probably to save costs) if they kept the sprite capabilities robust and added hardware for two independent background planes. This did work pretty well, and many Genesis titles look very colorful despite heavy use of dithering and limited color counts. Ultimately programmers were able to more easily produce games that looked, sounded, and as a result behaved differently than on the NES and previous consoles and more like arcade titles as a result of these hardware decisions. There was less need for careful code management and special effects could be substituted for a lack of colors and palette variety. It did mean that some developers were driven to one-up each other via careful coding to produce new special effects, since scrolling and basic sprite effects were relatively easy. Unfortunately, the easy of coding interesting sound and visual effects meant some programming houses were willing to ship shoddy gameplay. Graphically, Genesis games were less varied in quality than PCE games (more games clustered in the middle with fewer spread out at the low end), but in terms of core gameplay there was just as wide a quality spectrum. Sega paired their CPU and other system capabilities fairly effectively. A little greater audio flexibility in regard to digital samples and improved color support are the only gripes to be found.

I'm not sure I completely understand Nintendo's approach to system design when considering the Super Famicom, though I have a few guesses. They took a 16-bit 6502 derived core which had potential (hell, look what the Apple IIGS did with a similar CPU) but then clock-starved it. Rather, they seemed much more interested in graphics and sound capabilities. The sound chip is rather flexible (also has a 6502-based core), allowing for not only very clear digital samples but also some neat DSP effects, like reverb (unfortunately over-used). The graphics chipset has very good color support, strong sprite display capabilities, and background capabilities that vary widely based on the particular mode in which the chipset is driven. They also threw in, again, more special effects. Mode 7 (scaling and rotation) is a combination of effects that can be implemented on a set of background tiles, often artfully used to simulate foreground effects as well. Limited transparency effects can also be applied to background tiles and are often used to great effect in games (but also with weird side-effects, like foreground sprite objects disappearing completely where the transparency effects are taking place). They also packed the system with spacious RAM caches. My best guess here is that they saw what Sega was doing with the specialized hardware on the Genesis and decided that that road had some advantages and tried to one-up them in most regards. But they also likely saw themselves as successors to the Nintendo market and not as much the arcade market, so the graphics capabilities they implemented didn't so closely mimic arcade developments. I think they also weren't seeing much potential in FM synth and opted to focus solely on digital sampling. The SFC has some complicated and sometimes limiting modes of operation, and I don't know if they were the result of attempts to save money in system design or simply unanticipated quirks. Further, the CPU requires rather solid coding skills to get good performance and is not nearly as easy to program for as Sega's CPU choice. In many ways it was even less accommodating than Hudson's choice in the PCE. I can only guess that Nintendo figured with all the flashy effects and clear audio that actual program coding and design would be less important. The end result is a system which, like the Genesis, has a lot of attractive games with various graphical effects and games with clear sound. The easy sound chip resulted in some fantastic sound effects and tunes, but also lead to audio Uncanny Valley problems. PSG and FM sound tend to be very distinct and don't sound much like existing real world instruments, but SFC sampled sound could mimic said instruments closely enough that it was easy to compare to the real thing, and that sometimes led to disappointment, just as computer generated characters that look too much like real people actually create distance and seem creepier and less human than obviously unreal characters. The SFC suffered in some unique ways as a result of its design. It was the home platform for some of the most attractive, best sounding, and overall impressive games of its hardware generation, but it also produced some games which seemed unnecessarily flawed. Many early and middle era games were plagued with exaggerated slowdown as a result of programming code not being up to the same standard set by the easy-to-tap graphics and audio capabilities. This hearkened back to the days of the NES, where intense action scenes were often slowdown plagued, and was a stark contrast to the PCE and Genesis, two consoles which, overall, managed slowdown fairly well. I guess Nintendo wanted to accommodate its loyal NES programmers, but in giving them easy, flexible tools in some areas and not in others it appears that Nintendo confused some of them instead. The SFC is, ultimately, the most paradoxical of the systems, with great video and audio capabilities, lots of RAM space, and a CPU that seems to be poorly paired with the rest of the package. The SFC was a system which rose to the top as a result of the good hardware decisions being enough to simply muscle over the bad. It's like having a quite, smooth-handling car which is better than all the others except that gosh darnit it's really slow to accelerate up to highway speeds. Your music sounds better in this car. The seats are more comfortable. The visibility is better out of the windows. Everything is better until you have to drive up a merge lane that's too short or pass on the left around the camper going 5 mph below the speed limit and the dude tailgating you wants you to get your ass around the camper, NOW! It's a great trip, but you're periodically reminded that bad decisions are keeping this this awesome thing from being perfect.

OK, done. Tired, and done.

[Otaking]

The reason behind the SFC CPU is Nintendo originally wanted to make it backward compatible with the Famicom, but they couldn't manage to get the backward compatibility to work in time for the SFC release and it was stuck with a slow CPU.
In fact that's why Nintendo was late to the 16 bit race because the Famicom/NES still pwnd Japan & US and still had the no.1 user base that Nintendo didn't want to let go of.

[Tatsujin]

yeah, that's general knowledge

[Otaking]

yeah, that's general knowledge

I forgot to quote  , my post was a response to:

I've made a lot of guesses and assumptions here....

I'm not sure I completely understand Nintendo's approach to system design when considering the Super Famicom

[awack]

Just to give a few examples of the strength of each system.

SNES and mode 7...when mode 7 is done right, theres a part in batman & robin that involves a blimp and a scaling BG...video below, fast forward to 7 minutes.

Lets not forget about snes games with special chips like Star fox.

The same goes for transparencies, check out the laser weapon in super turrican 2.

For the genesis i would out the adventures of batman & robin(another batman game ) above ranger x.
The falling platform in stage two and the mad hatter boss fight are awesome. Ill go ahead and mention FMV games like silpheed for the sega cd.

For the pc engine, its all about sprite animation, what do you get when you add  up all the frames of animation from Act Raiser 2, Demons Crest, Act Raiser 1 and Castlevania 4, roughly the same amount of frames that are in Rondo...oh, it doesn't stop there, the sprites themselves are larger in rondo.


Rondo top   SCIV BOTTOM, the large rock golem is actually a BG tile/mode 7.


The effects/special attacks are also larger.

Rondo top    Demons crest bottom.


I ripped Sapphire, it completely trumps Donkey Kong Country, there are other examples, but ill stop.

The pce has a good combination of speed and color, it handles shooter remarkably well, but is it better than the snes or genesis, even though its my favorite system, i say no, both of those systems have a better rounded library in my opinion...such as platform shooters and side scrolling brawlers.

[SuperDeadite]

I love how the SNES is supposedly the "most powerful" but it's by far the slowest of the three.

Yeah, the CPU clock speed is pathetic, which is (I assume) why the shooter selection is so terrible on SNES,

Small selection yes, but what it does have is a small selection of incredibly good shmups, which in my opinion in quality beats the much larger selection of Megadrive shmups.

Axelay
Area 88 (Capcom's finest 2D shmup)
R-Type III: Third Lightning (best R-Type ever, simply amazing)
Super Aleste (brilliant Compile game, much better than the mediocre Musha Aleste)
Macross Scrambled Valkyrie (one of the finest shmups ever, tons of sprites on screen with no slowdown, trounces over the average PCE & Saturn Macross games)
Flying Hero
Sonic Wings
Gokujou Parodius, jikkyou Oshaberi Parodius and Parodius Da
Cotton 100%
Pop 'n Twinbee

Wait people LIKE Cotton 100%?  It's a rape of the series in my opinion.  AWFUL AWFUL game.
The rest of those are mediocre ports of arcade games, for the most point. Sure it's got
a few ok shooters.  But even the MSX1 is a better shooter system then the SNES. The SNES excels at
games with long levels that repeat graphics over and over.  It's a wonderful system for people who
enjoy seeing the same 3 sprites on a loop that goes on for 5 minutes.

I have an SFC, it has a few games I like, but the majority of the library are just Famicom games with
annoyingly long levels.  Even Super Aleste has those retarded bonus stages, and you have to replay
stage 1 again before the final stage.  Pointless filler, ugh.

[Otaking]

I love how the SNES is supposedly the "most powerful" but it's by far the slowest of the three.

Yeah, the CPU clock speed is pathetic, which is (I assume) why the shooter selection is so terrible on SNES,

Small selection yes, but what it does have is a small selection of incredibly good shmups, which in my opinion in quality beats the much larger selection of Megadrive shmups.

Axelay
Area 88 (Capcom's finest 2D shmup)
R-Type III: Third Lightning (best R-Type ever, simply amazing)
Super Aleste (brilliant Compile game, much better than the mediocre Musha Aleste)
Macross Scrambled Valkyrie (one of the finest shmups ever, tons of sprites on screen with no slowdown, trounces over the average PCE & Saturn Macross games)
Flying Hero
Sonic Wings
Gokujou Parodius, jikkyou Oshaberi Parodius and Parodius Da
Cotton 100%
Pop 'n Twinbee

Wait people LIKE Cotton 100%?  It's a rape of the series in my opinion.  AWFUL AWFUL game.
The rest of those are mediocre ports of arcade games, for the most point. Sure it's got
a few ok shooters.  But even the MSX1 is a better shooter system then the SNES. The SNES excels at
games with long levels that repeat graphics over and over.  It's a wonderful system for people who
enjoy seeing the same 3 sprites on a loop that goes on for 5 minutes.

I have an SFC, it has a few games I like, but the majority of the library are just Famicom games with
annoyingly long levels.  Even Super Aleste has those retarded bonus stages, and you have to replay
stage 1 again before the final stage.  Pointless filler, ugh.

smiply put, I disagree with everything you just said.
The comments have no correlation with someone who's actually played amazing games like R-Type III, Macross Scrambled Valkyrie & Axelay

[Opethian]

[Tatsujin]

[SuperDeadite]

I love how the SNES is supposedly the "most powerful" but it's by far the slowest of the three.

Yeah, the CPU clock speed is pathetic, which is (I assume) why the shooter selection is so terrible on SNES,

Small selection yes, but what it does have is a small selection of incredibly good shmups, which in my opinion in quality beats the much larger selection of Megadrive shmups.

Axelay
Area 88 (Capcom's finest 2D shmup)
R-Type III: Third Lightning (best R-Type ever, simply amazing)
Super Aleste (brilliant Compile game, much better than the mediocre Musha Aleste)
Macross Scrambled Valkyrie (one of the finest shmups ever, tons of sprites on screen with no slowdown, trounces over the average PCE & Saturn Macross games)
Flying Hero
Sonic Wings
Gokujou Parodius, jikkyou Oshaberi Parodius and Parodius Da
Cotton 100%
Pop 'n Twinbee

Wait people LIKE Cotton 100%?  It's a rape of the series in my opinion.  AWFUL AWFUL game.
The rest of those are mediocre ports of arcade games, for the most point. Sure it's got
a few ok shooters.  But even the MSX1 is a better shooter system then the SNES. The SNES excels at
games with long levels that repeat graphics over and over.  It's a wonderful system for people who
enjoy seeing the same 3 sprites on a loop that goes on for 5 minutes.

I have an SFC, it has a few games I like, but the majority of the library are just Famicom games with
annoyingly long levels.  Even Super Aleste has those retarded bonus stages, and you have to replay
stage 1 again before the final stage.  Pointless filler, ugh.

smiply put, I disagree with everything you just said.
The comments have no correlation with someone who's actually played amazing games like R-Type III, Macross Scrambled Valkyrie & Axelay

I've played every game on that list.  Axelay's vertical levels are all the same thing over and over.  Sure the horizontal levels were great, but 50% of the game sucks.  Why the hell would I play a half-assed port of Parodius when I can play the real arcade game it's based on?  The best Macross games are again the arcade games.  R-Type III is inferior to all 3 of the arcade games.  The first level with all the mode 7 rotation effects is sleep inducing.  By the time it ends I simply don't care anymore.  When I play shooters I like to actually shoot stuff, not sit around waiting for the silly background to rotate.

[OldRover]

The bits thing is always a fun time to debate.

SNES = 8/16 bit hybrid CPU, 16 bit graphics hardware (16 bit bus), 8 bits of color output (256 max).
MD = 16 bit CPU, 8 bit graphics hardware (16 bit bus), 5 bits of color output (64 max).
PCE = 8 bit CPU, 16 bit graphics hardware (16 bit bus), >15 bits of color output (481 max).

...who's the 16 bit impostor?

[Tatsujin]

I've thought the SFC is capable of 32768 colors output? so is it all all big LIE?

[NecroPhile]

I've thought the sfc is capable of 32768 colors output? so is it all all big LIE?

That's the total number available to pick from, but it can only put 256 on screen at a time.

[CrackTiger]

I've noticed how when Genesis and SNES fanboys compare platforms, they tend to judge everything based around how close anything is to their favorite console, at the exclusion of rival console's strengths. So you'll find blind Genesis fans judging things not by how good or bad they are, but how Genesis-like they are or aren't. Like how a game is pathetically weak if it doesn't move fast enough to make it unplayable. Super SNES nerds though, tend to dismiss outright anything that Nintendo hasn't touched, because by default it can never even come close to comparing.

The only thing that Genesis and SNES super fans always seem to agree on though, is when the PC Engine is being discussed along with the other two consoles, they instantly dismiss any and all positives/superiorities that the PC Engine has. The craziest part of that, is that it's mainly the actual graphics that these people are saying don't count. You know, the pixel art that makes up the entire image before any gimmicks are tossed around.

It's even crazier when people start to point out what only the Genesis or SNES can do and how the PC Engine can't. End of discussion. It's crazy because the same people ignore the fact that the graphics in PC Engine games like Forgotten Worlds are IMPOSSIBLE to achieve on either Genesis or SNES. Period. If we're talking about what CAN'T be done on other consoles, then both the Genesis and SNES can't produce resolutions and onscreen color, or actual graphic quality, as the lowly "8-bit" PC Engine can and has in published games. They'll go on about how a warping pixelated mess or 60fps transparencies can never be matched by similar techniques on other consoles. But when the actual graphics themselves are of a higher and unmatched technical quality... all of a sudden technical feats no longer count.

You know what other hardware lacks true Mode 7 and real transparencies? Neo Geo, CPS1 and CPS2. Can those platforms never compare to the power of the SNES? One thing they all have in common with each other and the PC Engine is that they're capable of higher resolutions plus more onscreen colors and are known for amazing in-game animation. Do the flicker transparencies in CPS2 games really look so bad that those of us who think the games look good are really just "kidding ourselves"? And all the animation found in games for those three platforms, is it really no substitute for warping and pixelated effects? Because the way I see it it's the other way around. Much of the special effects on 16-bit consoles are substitutes for real art and animation. Are Seiken Densetsu 3's Intellivision-quality pixelated O's really more impressive than animated art?

The other ridiculous stereotype that's been floating around since back in the day, is the notion of "real" and "fake" effects. Like how the PC Engine can only do "fake" parallax. I've got some terrible news for Genesis and SNES fanboys, ALL of your favorite console's graphics and scrolling is fake. These systems don't move around layers of graphic art. They cobble together of bunch of little swatches called "tiles" and create the illusion of pieces of art. It's just a simulation. But then, instead of sliding around these layers in real-time with magic invisible computer hands, these sections of tiles instantly teleport to different locations. That's right, the Genesis and SNES use ANIMATION to simulate movement, just like how the PC Engine does. There is no such thing as real-time in game graphics. It's all an animated illusion that tricks human minds with simulated movement.

Not that it matters how the little monkeys work things under the hood, but for the people ridiculing the PC Engine for only having two layers like some 8-bit chump, it actually has 3 layers. There's the tiles, sprites and a solid color layer that is normally invisible. Why does it matter? It is used at times for things like transparency effects. That rolling tunnel in Metamor Jupitor would be impressive enough on its own. But what's all the more impressive is that it actually has shading with a gradient that the graphics are rolling through. I believe that Chris Covell's Axelay SuperGrafx demo also uses that third layer for the transparency at the horizon.

One minor note: Earlier people were talking about the SuperGrafx transparency demo(s) with Zelda graphics. Tomaitheous actually made those demos. He also made a cool transparency demo for PCE that uses Thunder Force IV graphics. It doesn't matter what kind of demos show the potential the PCE has though, there are loads of PCE games with cool translucency, silhouette and misc "transparency" like effects. Many of which are impossible to do with and look better than slapping a SNES transparency layer over something. Also those fugly flicker transpencies allow multiple layers and transparent sprites, something the SNES can't do in "hardware" either.

Anyway, if the actual graphic quality is negligible and a better measure of true "16-bit"ness or Genesis/SNES caliber graphics is scrolling a background layer vertically and horizontally behind the foreground... then I give you "real" 16-bit graphics that has been "deceptively" (LIES! ) described as "8-bit" to this day-