Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE

[Tatsujin]

Lol, the PCE's hardware design was so much more superior advanced than the onef rom  the MD/genny.
As I always like to say, if you open a PCE it looks like a reduced to the max super quad flat pack SMD super duper design direct from the future.
Now when you open a genny, it looks like a cheap radio alarm clock from the early 80s.

Now you tell me who had more experience in designing some rad hardaware?

[Arkhan Asylum]

Tats has a point there.

It goes as far as their cards, not just the console itself.

[Tatsujin]

the genny had 10 channels FMA. It couldn't even manage to overlap two simultaneous voices in Street fighter II. Now who's the whiner?

[Arkhan Asylum]

the genny had 10 channels FMA. It couldn't even manage to overlap two simultaneous voices in Street fighter II. Now who's the whiner?

TIGER UPPERHADOKTIGERUHADOKSHORYUTIGERUPPERCHADOKEN

[Tatsujin]

ROLFMAORORFLOL

[Mathius]

the genny had 10 channels FMA. It couldn't even manage to overlap two simultaneous voices in Street fighter II. Now who's the whiner?

TIGER UPPERHADOKTIGERUHADOKSHORYUTIGERUPPERCHADOKEN

You forgot to say that through that kazoo of yours.

[soop]

Beat 'em ups is a good point.  I wonder how a Final Fight HuCard would have gone down.  The PCE has proven it can handle massive sprites..  What's the closest game to Final Fight?  The Kung Fu?

[FraGMarE]

I think both the TG16 and Genesis sound hardware do their respective jobs just fine.  Cases can be made for excellent works on both systems.  Take Ghouls N' Ghosts, for example... clearly it sounds better on the Genesis than on the SuperGrafx.  Now look at Street Fighter II... you've got to be deaf not to hear the PC-Engine version sounds better.  Then there were the dual-platform games where it's a bit more subjective.  Devil's Crush, for example, sounds better to me on the TG16, despite it being programmed, on the Genesis, by the mighty Technosoft.  Kyokyuko Tiger/Twin Cobra sounds better, to me, on the Genesis.  Cadash, while both versions sound different, seem altogether about the same quality.  The list could go on and on...  Of course, each system has their sound masterpieces.  You'll never find anything like Streets Of Rage or Thunderforce on the TG16/PCE, and you'll never find anything like Soldier Blade or Aldynes on the Genesis.  The TG16 didn't have FM channels for that low, thumping, twangy bass and the Genesis did not have custom waveforms or enough PSG channels to get the same kind of sound out of its PSG channels as the TG16.  The only thing I wish they'd done with the PCE/TG16 is give the PSG channels their own controller chip to take a little heat off the CPU.  I mean, it's not like full-blown PSG sound eats up a *lot* of CPU time (5-10% maybe), but every little bit counts.

As for NES games sounding better, there are two things in play here.  The first is nostalgia and the second is musical composition.  While an argument can be made that many NES games (Ninja Gaiden, Contra, SMB, Megaman) had some ultra-addictive stick-in-your-head tunes that you keep humming all day, I think the majority of what's going on is that it's nostalgia at work.  You were younger, things made a bigger impression on you back then, and NES music was essentially a soundtrack to your youth. 

[Arkhan Asylum]

Take Ghouls N' Ghosts, for example... clearly it sounds better on the Genesis than on the SuperGrafx. 

THEMS FIGHTIN WORDS. 

[FraGMarE]

Beat 'em ups is a good point.  I wonder how a Final Fight HuCard would have gone down.  The PCE has proven it can handle massive sprites..  What's the closest game to Final Fight?  The Kung Fu?

PCE would/could have handled Final Fight great, especially on HuCard.  Might have to make the HuCard 6-8Mbit if you wanted all three characters, but as far as actual gameplay, it'd be just fine.  You could even use the PCE's 336x224 mode for a resolution a bit closer to the arcade's, or you could go the SNES route and use 256x224.  Take a look at Final Fight for the SNES... they pulled off two characters with a 4Mbit cart and it played just fine (and that was even an early release when they were still trying to figure out how to get the most of the SNES's turd of a CPU).  The PCE desperately needed a *great* sidescrolling beater and never got it.  Double Dragon II is good, but not exactly the most impressive beat-em-up.  Riot Zone is visually nice, but the gameplay itself leaves much to be desired (no 2p co-op?  wtf?).  Personally, I think the PCE should have gotten a conversion of the original TMNT arcade game by Konami.  It would have made a lot of sense, since the PCE had 5-player tap and there was no other decent conversion of that game around (yea, the NES version is a good game, but I wouldn't even really call it a good conversion).

Take Ghouls N' Ghosts, for example... clearly it sounds better on the Genesis than on the SuperGrafx. 

THEMS FIGHTIN WORDS. 

HAHA well it really does sound better!  PCE fanboyism notwithstanding, of course *cough*

[Arkhan Asylum]

I prefer PCE music over most, because I like the way it sounds better than FM, lol.

and:

you sure it sounds better? lol

[FraGMarE]

Yea, I'm sticking to my guns on this one.

I prefer PCE music over most, because I like the way it sounds better than FM, lol.

and:

you sure it sounds better? lol

Yea, I'm sticking to my guns on this one.  While the SGX soundtrack is more arcade faithful and the Genesis soundtrack is arranged, I enjoy the depth of the FM and, I'm sorry, some of the high notes on the SGX are just unpleasant to hear... just sayin'

[spenoza]

the genny had 10 channels FMA. It couldn't even manage to overlap two simultaneous voices in Street fighter II. Now who's the whiner?

Yeah, I said I didn't prefer the Genesis on sound effects and digital sampling. The MD could replicate high-quality digital audio, but not really when it was doing anything else (except for a few examples, like Dynamite Heady). But the ability to combine FM and PSG really made for some dynamic soundtracks.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Yea, I'm sticking to my guns on this one.

I prefer PCE music over most, because I like the way it sounds better than FM, lol.

and:

you sure it sounds better? lol

Yea, I'm sticking to my guns on this one.  While the SGX soundtrack is more arcade faithful and the Genesis soundtrack is arranged, I enjoy the depth of the FM and, I'm sorry, some of the high notes on the SGX are just unpleasant to hear... just sayin'

my reason for not liking the gennie one is the sounds are inconsistent.  Some tunes sound absolutely awesome, and others its like WHY IS IREM IN MY GAME

[NecroPhile]

my reason for not liking the gennie one is the sounds are inconsistent.  Some tunes sound absolutely awesome, and others its like WHY IS IREM IN MY GAME

Unlike the PCE where every game sounds just as good as Dungeon Explorer or Legendary Axe. 

[Arkhan Asylum]

exactly.

Even bad PCE music sounds good.

I can't really think of a game that has terri..

oh wait, Turrican.

Goddamn.

[FraGMarE]

exactly.

Even bad PCE music sounds good.

I can't really think of a game that has terri..

oh wait, Turrican.

Goddamn.

haha the PCE had its fair share of awful music, like any other system.  Darkwing Duck comes to mind too

[_Paul]

4. Shenmue 3 on Super CD.

HELL YES.

[Arkhan Asylum]

exactly.

Even bad PCE music sounds good.

I can't really think of a game that has terri..

oh wait, Turrican.

Goddamn.

haha the PCE had its fair share of awful music, like any other system.  Darkwing Duck comes to mind too

Yeah. well that's what happens when round eye touches stuff

[TurboXray]

I think 10 was enough for the MD. The MD had some excellent soundtracks. The sound effects usually sucked balls, but thanks to the FM and PSG there were some fantastic tunes. I agree that more can be done with fewer channels, though. Look as some of the best NES soundtracks. I feel like the PCE's audio solution was simply too inflexible, too difficult to push. 6 channels would have been just fine if there were just a little more it could do with them.

But that's just a number. Most MD/Gen tunes don't even touch the PSG chip for music. And the ones that do definitely don't have it for the lead (with very-very few rare exceptions like SOR title screen music). Of the 4 PSG channels, it's realistically only three. 'Cause the noise channel is completely useless on its own; it only has two pitches for noise. If you want a real operation for the noise channel, it takes the period register of a tone channel (in which you loose a channel) to make real range of noise pitches. And the fact that PSG channels themselves are rather limiting (no duty cycle changing and the 10bit period register limits the octave range (both low notes and high notes). Considering what the FM chip was capable of (whether you're a fan of it or not), the SMS PSG chip is not much of a companion. You can already make perfect square wave and triangle waveform notes with the YM2612 using the feedback register (a common exploit in FM chips).

 Same with the NES. Sure, 5 channels. But those channels aren't the same as the PCE. I mean, ignoring the fact that only two of the channels are lead (4 duty cycles for four different 'timbres') - the triangle channel has no volume control and neither does the 'sample' DPCM channel. So the PCE might have just one more channel, but it's a rather large step up from the NES audio in terms of capability. Whether developers took advantage of that or not, is another thing entirely.

 But I do agree that 8 channels would have seemed the logical route for PCE audio. Not that you really need more channels per se to make a song or such, but the PCE's audio lacks any sort of intra-note hardware timbre control (though note-to-note timbre control is easy to do) and requires doing phase difference type effects with two channels to bend that timbre/sound (which number of PCE game music do). So an extra 2 channels would have worked nicely for that - even if it meant no extra waveform memory for them; just duplicate/reuse an existing waveform buffer. But as it is, the CDROM attachment was showcased even before the PCE was released. So think of that as your real audio upgrade (nothing could beat red book at the time). Appreciation for chiptunes seems all the rage these past 10 years or so, but back in the day people didn't give a shit. CD audio was 'badass' and everything else was inferior.

[Digi.k]

are we discussing that the pce-had a bad sound chip or that it just had bad music composers here... ?

cause I sure think we went down this road a few years ago....

[roflmao]

This thread is way over my head, but I still find it thoroughly interesting.

[Arkhan Asylum]

But that's just a number. Most MD/Gen tunes don't even touch the PSG chip for music.

If it's just a number, why even bring it up then? lol.   You're the one that brought up numbers in this regard.

Considering what the FM chip was capable of (whether you're a fan of it or not), the SMS PSG chip is not much of a companion. You can already make perfect square wave and triangle waveform notes with the YM2612 using the feedback register (a common exploit in FM chips).

But you could use the PSG for a lot of percussive things instead of wasting a perfectly good FM channel that could be doing something better.

but it's a rather large step up from the NES audio in terms of capability. Whether developers took advantage of that or not, is another thing entirely.

That's funny, considering in the past you've said the PCE is just a step above the NES.  Now it's a large step up.  At least you're leaning the right way now.

But I do agree that 8 channels would have seemed the logical route for PCE audio.

I'm curious what the logical reason was for doing 6, because it obviously worked out great.

Not that you really need more channels per se to make a song or such, but the PCE's audio lacks any sort of intra-note hardware timbre control (though note-to-note timbre control is easy to do)

Thank you for restating what I already said.

and requires doing phase difference type effects with two channels to bend that timbre/sound (which number of PCE game music do).

It is not always a requirement.  You can do it with a single channel.  Change the wave with every note.  Split a note into shorter durations (two 16ths instead of an and change waves between them.  I've done it with Squirrel.

Appreciation for chiptunes seems all the rage these past 10 years or so, but back in the day people didn't give a shit. CD audio was 'badass' and everything else was inferior.

Tell that to all those wack job C64 fans, dude.

[TurboXray]

..... Arkhan, just let it rest. I wasn't replying to you directly or indirectly. Whatever your problem is, get over it already. I'm sick of you talking shit/snide remarks/attitude/whatever towards me on the forum. Quit trying to start/stir up shit. I purposely avoid replying to you or having any conversation with you on this forum. Please provide me with the same courtesy.

[Keith Courage]

I agree that there are many types of games that would have helped sales of the system. However, the biggest loss was that it had no 2nd controller port and a lack of fighting action style 2 player games. I really think this made a huge difference in North America. If only Riot Zone was 2 player. What were they thinking?

[roflmao]

Totally agree with Keith Courage.

[Arkhan Asylum]

..... Arkhan, just let it rest. I wasn't replying to you directly or indirectly. Whatever your problem is, get over it already. I'm sick of you talking shit/snide remarks/attitude/whatever towards me on the forum. Quit trying to start/stir up shit. I purposely avoid replying to you or having any conversation with you on this forum. Please provide me with the same courtesy.

ffs.  let what rest?  I'm not trying to stir anything up with you, crybaby.  These are legitimate responses to the things you are posting.  You don't read these forums in great detail, so let me explain something:  You aren't getting some special treatment from me.  I think you are a complete dumbass for two fistfulls of reasons, but this does not come into play at all when responding to things you say.  If you hadn't noticed, others replied to what I said as well.  We're having a discussion.  Something you too can be a part of!

So, quit being a pussy and lrn2forum.  Respond properly to the things I say.  This means focus on refuting the topic, rather than managing to imply the people you don't agree with are automagically stupid and clueless and that you are the only one with a clue.  Also, proofread your posts so they make sense and don't contain broken sentences, typos, or complete misuse of words that shout out that you aren't re-reading things.  If you can't take the time to do that at least, how much do you really even care about ANY discussions.

For example, I saw on YouTube, you called Nintega a "gluten for punishment".  I got a good laugh out of it.  Stop doing that.  If I wanted to stir shit up with you, I would have been all over that blunder like a fat kid with a piece of cake.

If you can't cope, push the ignore button or deactivate your account for the 4th time only to come back with a new moniker that will undoubtedly be unraveled within 3 posts because your post format is totally obvious.  If you talk in public and I feel like responding, I am going to.  Fuck courtesy.

and for what it's worth, by replying to someone who is replying to me, you are replying to me indirectly.  You should understand this, being a programmer and all.

[arromdee]

I'd go with not having a second layer of scrolling.  Its absence was very noticeable

[FraGMarE]

So, quit being a pussy and lrn2forum.

HAHA, you weigh like 120lbs and look like the lost member of LMFAO... you want to be the pot or the kettle on this one?  

[Arkhan Asylum]

So, quit being a pussy and lrn2forum.

HAHA, you weigh like 120lbs and look like the lost member of LMFAO... you want to be the pot or the kettle on this one?   

lol, what does weight/size/appearance have to do with being a pussy or not?  Me weighing 135 (ye ye!) obviously hasn't stopped me from speaking my mind, ever. 

and if the person I'm talking to has to end up resorting to physical aggression, it just means I'm right and they ain't got nothin' useful to say.  If I get injured BRING ON TEH LAWSUITS CAUSE THIS IS 'MERICA.

[FraGMarE]

So, quit being a pussy and lrn2forum.

HAHA, you weigh like 120lbs and look like the lost member of LMFAO... you want to be the pot or the kettle on this one?   

lol, what does weight/size/appearance have to do with being a pussy or not?  Me weighing 135 (ye ye!) obviously hasn't stopped me from speaking my mind, ever. 

and if the person I'm talking to has to end up resorting to physical aggression, it just means I'm right and they ain't got nothin' useful to say.  If I get injured BRING ON TEH LAWSUITS CAUSE THIS IS 'MERICA.

For that matter, what does speaking your mind have to do with being a pussy or not?  It has less to do with being a pussy and more to do with being a loudmouth internet assclown... or not, as the case may be.

Try that same approach in the real world and you'll likely end up getting your personality "fine-tuned" because of it.  It probably has less to do with who's right or wrong than it has to do with who failed to recognize when they were pushing the situation to that point before it was too late and probably should have kept their loud mouth shut in the first place BEFORE there was physical aggression involved... an ouce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they always say. 

[NecroPhile]

So, quit being a pussy and lrn2forum.  Respond properly to the things I say.  This means focus on refuting the topic, rather than managing to imply the people you don't agree with are automagically stupid and clueless and that you are the only one with a clue.

... something about pots and kettles.

Also, proofread your posts so they make sense and don't contain broken sentences, typos, or complete misuse of words that shout out that you aren't re-reading things.  If you can't take the time to do that at least, how much do you really even care about ANY discussions.

That's rich coming from you.

[Arkhan Asylum]

For that matter, what does speaking your mind have to do with being a pussy or not?  It has less to do with being a pussy and more to do with being a loudmouth internet assclown... or not, as the case may be.

Not really.  You can't just go blabbering online in public and then whine and tell someone not to bother you because they're disagreeing.   Well I mean, you can, but it makes you a pussy and you shouldn't be on the internet posting opinionated things.  Suck it up and deal with it, or hit the ignore button if it's such a problem.  That's what the button is for: Pussies and crybabies.

In this case the discussion is continuing along just fine and valid points/counterpoints are being made.  It's not like anyones trolling in this thread.  There's some hella stupid sandyvag going on though.

Bonknuts is convinced I have it out for him.  Anyone who actually reads this forum consistently would know that what I've been posting isn't really any different than stuff I usually post.  It's obnoxious and abrasive, but usually brings validity along with it.  

Believe me, if I really had it out for TomaitheousBonknutsBonknuts, everyone would know, because I'd be doing something about it.

Try that same approach in the real world and you'll likely end up getting your personality "fine-tuned" because of it.

I feel sorry for people who have to start throwing punches because they can't handle talking.  

I do this in the real world too.  It's not a case of LOL INTERNET TUFF GUY.  When I disagree, I disagree.  When I think someones being stupid, I tell them.  If they can't deal with it, they probably are stupid.  Or a crybaby with sandyvag.  The worlds a tough place. If the internets too hard, you're screwed.

It probably has less to do with who's right or wrong than it has to do with who failed to recognize when they were pushing the situation to that point before it was too late and probably should have kept their loud mouth shut in the first place BEFORE there was physical aggression involved... and ouce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they always say.  

More often then not, when someone is losing an argument and runs out of options, they start to get mad.

Once they get mad, they start making less sense, and eventually turn to physical interaction to assert themselves. Usually the person who starts the physical confrontation was wrong to the point where they ran out of ideas.  

Happens all the time.

On the internet, the mad usually becomes apparent when their post becomes riddled with typos/sentences that are barely coherent, grammarfail9000's, lash-out personal attacks with no actual reasoning behind them, and crap like that.  


So if you can't hang, I encourage you to use the "I'm a huge, fat, sandyva... " i mean the "Ignore" button.

I wonder what'd happen with these people if the real world had an ignore button?  They'd likely be wandering around oblivious to the world around them because they ignore anything that might burst their self absorbed little bubbles.

\o/

PCE sound chip is king.  

Necromancer: I do proofread my posts. How often do I make typos or grammatical errors that AREN'T on purpose, and screw up the readability/point of a post?



as for the pot and kettle thing, *shrug*.  I disagree.

[soop]

For that matter, what does speaking your mind have to do with being a pussy or not?  It has less to do with being a pussy and more to do with being a loudmouth internet assclown... or not, as the case may be.

Not really.  You can't just go blabbering online in public and then whine and tell someone not to bother you because they're disagreeing.   Well I mean, you can, but it makes you a pussy and you shouldn't be on the internet posting opinionated things.  Suck it up and deal with it, or hit the ignore button if it's such a problem.  That's what the button is for: Pussies and crybabies.

In this case the discussion is continuing along just fine and valid points/counterpoints are being made.  It's not like anyones trolling in this thread.  There's some hella stupid sandyvag going on though.

Bonknuts is convinced I have it out for him.  Anyone who actually reads this forum consistently would know that what I've been posting isn't really any different than stuff I usually post.  It's obnoxious and abrasive, but usually brings validity along with it. 

Believe me, if I really had it out for TomaitheousBonknutsBonknuts, everyone would know, because I'd be doing something about it.

Try that same approach in the real world and you'll likely end up getting your personality "fine-tuned" because of it.

I feel sorry for people who have to start throwing punches because they can't handle talking. 

I do this in the real world too.  It's not a case of LOL INTERNET TUFF GUY.  When I disagree, I disagree.  When I think someones being stupid, I tell them.  If they can't deal with it, they probably are stupid.  Or a crybaby with sandyvag.  The worlds a tough place. If the internets too hard, you're screwed.

It probably has less to do with who's right or wrong than it has to do with who failed to recognize when they were pushing the situation to that point before it was too late and probably should have kept their loud mouth shut in the first place BEFORE there was physical aggression involved... and ouce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they always say. 

More often then not, when someone is losing an argument and runs out of options, they start to get mad.

Once they get mad, they start making less sense, and eventually turn to physical interaction to assert themselves. Usually the person who starts the physical confrontation was wrong to the point where they ran out of ideas. 

Happens all the time.

On the internet, the mad usually becomes apparent when their post becomes riddled with typos/sentences that are barely coherent, grammarfail9000's, lash-out personal attacks with no actual reasoning behind them, and crap like that. 


So if you can't hang, I encourage you to use the "I'm a huge, fat, sandyva... " i mean the "Ignore" button.

I wonder what'd happen with these people if the real world had an ignore button?  They'd likely be wandering around oblivious to the world around them because they ignore anything that might burst their self absorbed little bubbles.

\o/

PCE sound chip is king. 

Necromancer: I do proofread my posts. How often do I make typos or grammatical errors that AREN'T on purpose, and screw up the readability/point of a post?



as for the pot and kettle thing, *shrug*.  I disagree.

At the risk of cauising a fuss... He wasn't annoyed at you r disagreeing, it was more the manner in which you disagreed.  It was a little .... confrontational.

Whatever your problem is, get over it already. I'm sick of you talking shit/snide remarks/attitude/whatever towards me on the forum. Quit trying to start/stir up shit.

As for the whole "resorting to violence because you can't put across a decent argument", one could say the same about trash talking.

Personally, I lurked long enough to figure out who was who, and I know not to take stuff personally from you, but I guess you have been a little bit more confrontational with Bonknuts.  I think quite a few people have really.

[Sadler]

Ark, I like you and I appreciate what you've done for the community. Regardless, any chance we can dial back the 4chan a bit in here? It's cool to disagree, but there's really no reason to act like a 13 year old on XBL while doing so.

[Arkhan Asylum]

It's coincidence.  I'm more confrontational when I disagree, and I tend to disagree with him more than others.  Sure I may run my mouth about him, but hey, I run my mouth TO him too.  *shrug*. 

Look at when I disagree with Zeta.  You don't see him crying about it.  He's good to go.

I'm pretty sure Bonknuts is just mad that I am talking to him in general. Apparently he doesn't like that (but doesn't hit the ignore button and solve the problem all by himself). No ones allowed to disagree with his opinion or refute anything he says of the logical/technical variety.  All that happens when you do is he gets crabby, starts lashing out at the person rather than the topic, and then disappears for awhile, only to repeat the vicious cycle.

I won't get into it, but short story version: He used to be way more chill when debating with people.  Then one day, I think he got that "whoadamn im a friggin genius!" bug up his ass and can't process what happens when someone else might be right and he might be wrong.

I'm cool with being wrong, when I'm wrong.  Prove it when I'm wrong! I'd love it, as it would mean I learned something.  Supply evidence / crap about claims instead of peeing your pants.  That's how it works.

Sadler: This isn't anything like 4 chan or 13 year olds on XBL.  I haven't insulted anyones mom, posted any dicks, threatened to blow up dogs, or burn houses down.

I just said quit being a pussy.  That's pretty good advice, when you think about it.  lol

[soop]

I agree, it's pretty tame, and TBH, it's not really a big deal apart from Bonknuts getting upset by it.

You should agree some kind of compromise, because it's a pretty interesting conversation, and the casual insults lend it a certain gravitas.

[NecroPhile]

Necromancer: I do proofread my posts. How often do I make typos or grammatical errors that AREN'T on purpose

Quite often.

...and screw up the readability/point of a post?

Was that your point?  If Tom's post's are unreadable and pointless, to what are you responding?  Did the use of 'gluten' in place of 'glutton' honestly make you think he was talking about grain protein? 

as for the pot and kettle thing, *shrug*.  I disagree.

A prime example:

6 channels is lacking in 1987?  lolgtfo.  That's more than the NES, and the same as the Genesis which wasn't even out yet.  More than the Konami SCC even.  How is 6 channels lacking?  You're high.

There's a smidgeon of logical argument, but it mostly comes across as "you're wrong and dumb!"  The Genny has more than 6 channels anyway, as did the x68k and many arcade boards from the same time period.

In any case, I could give a shit about you and Tom arguing over shit; I just know hypocrisy when I see it.

[Arkhan Asylum]

the compromise I am going to go with is "quit being a crybaby and lrn2forum".

there was no casual insulting until the peepants were unleashed. There was what 4 pages of discussion about it from multiple people?

I guess I did stir shit up.  I stirred up like 4 people talking about sega/pce/nes music.  OH THE HORROR.  WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE.

[FraGMarE]

For that matter, what does speaking your mind have to do with being a pussy or not?  It has less to do with being a pussy and more to do with being a loudmouth internet assclown... or not, as the case may be.

Not really.  You can't just go blabbering online in public and then whine and tell someone not to bother you because they're disagreeing.   Well I mean, you can, but it makes you a pussy and you shouldn't be on the internet posting opinionated things.  Suck it up and deal with it, or hit the ignore button if it's such a problem.  That's what the button is for: Pussies and crybabies.

In this case the discussion is continuing along just fine and valid points/counterpoints are being made.  It's not like anyones trolling in this thread.  There's some hella stupid sandyvag going on though.

Bonknuts is convinced I have it out for him.  Anyone who actually reads this forum consistently would know that what I've been posting isn't really any different than stuff I usually post.  It's obnoxious and abrasive, but usually brings validity along with it.  

Believe me, if I really had it out for TomaitheousBonknutsBonknuts, everyone would know, because I'd be doing something about it.

It usually takes a little trolling, or at least trolling disguised as opinions stated abrasively and obnoxiously to cause some "sandyvag".  In turn, the offending troll usually had some sandyvag in the first place, which incited said trolling.  While I realize what you're posting has some validity in there... somewhere... your "shotgun approach" to posting the abrasive and bitter shit isn't just pissing off your target audience (in this case Tom), it's getting on other peoples' nuts here too (namely mine).  As far as not having it out for Tom, don't be coy.  We all know you don't like the guy.  We can all see it clearly when you respond to his posts with extra-abrasive vigor, even for you.  Hell, you've even said as much, that you're not fond of Tom.  Therein lies the problem... While I agree that having multiple projects in the works and finishing few is a tease and maybe even a bit irresponsible, it's no reason to have everyone else on this forum endure your personal grudge every time Tom posts something.  If you're having some kind of marital spat with another member on this forum, take that bullshit to PM or something.

Try that same approach in the real world and you'll likely end up getting your personality "fine-tuned" because of it.

I feel sorry for people who have to start throwing punches because they can't handle talking.  

I do this in the real world too.  It's not a case of LOL INTERNET TUFF GUY.  When I disagree, I disagree.  When I think someones being stupid, I tell them.  If they can't deal with it, they probably are stupid.  Or a crybaby with sandyvag.  The worlds a tough place. If the internets too hard, you're screwed.

It probably has less to do with who's right or wrong than it has to do with who failed to recognize when they were pushing the situation to that point before it was too late and probably should have kept their loud mouth shut in the first place BEFORE there was physical aggression involved... and ouce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they always say.  

More often then not, when someone is losing an argument and runs out of options, they start to get mad.

Once they get mad, they start making less sense, and eventually turn to physical interaction to assert themselves. Usually the person who starts the physical confrontation was wrong to the point where they ran out of ideas.  

Happens all the time.

On the internet, the mad usually becomes apparent when their post becomes riddled with typos/sentences that are barely coherent, grammarfail9000's, lash-out personal attacks with no actual reasoning behind them, and crap like that.  


So if you can't hang, I encourage you to use the "I'm a huge, fat, sandyva... " i mean the "Ignore" button.

Like I said, it's not always about being right or wrong.  Sometimes its about how you present your argument.  I can tell you, personally, if somebody came up to me in real life with a disagreement and was at least somewhat civil about it, I'd return the favor and have a civilized discussion about it.  If they came up to me spouting off about how I had a "sandyvag" and calling me a pussy right off the bat, that's a good recipe for getting knocked out... and I'm not even a violent person!  Sometimes it's not about who's right or wrong, sometimes it's about personal respect.  If someone's not going to give me enough personal respect to hold at least a somewhat civilized discussion about something, I will make no guarantees the situation won't escalate to physical violence, because it seems that's what the other person wanted all along anyway.  My point is, if you're bitter or butthurt about some other member here, fine, but don't make the rest of us suffer by derailing an entire thread into a flame war between the two of you.  Use the PM feature or go hunt him down on IRC if you want to be over-the-top abrasive and generally annoying about it.  It's like getting into a yelling match at a crowded restaurant.  Take that shit elsewhere.

I wonder what'd happen with these people if the real world had an ignore button?  They'd likely be wandering around oblivious to the world around them because they ignore anything that might burst their self absorbed little bubbles.

\o/

PCE sound chip is king.  

Necromancer: I do proofread my posts. How often do I make typos or grammatical errors that AREN'T on purpose, and screw up the readability/point of a post?



as for the pot and kettle thing, *shrug*.  I disagree.

Now that THAT'S off my chest, yes, PCE sound is king... or at least Prince of PSG.  Though, I wish more was/would be done with the LFO feature using channels 1+2.  I'd bet you could get some pretty FM-like sound qualities (nice sounding low notes and such) using that.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Quite often.

Quite often?  I doubt it.

Show me, if you feel like it.  I generally try to proofread.  You don't mean stupid crap like comma use and "posting like you're talking out loud", do you?  That doesn't exactly count.

Was that your point?  If Tom's post's are unreadable and pointless, to what are you responding?  Did the use of 'gluten' in place of 'glutton' honestly make you think he was talking about grain protein?  

The point can usually be figured out, but that's alot of effort that could be saved.  And no the use of gluten didn't make me think that.  It's just, if you're going to make fun of a troll, try not to do something that stupid, lol.

and if you're going to post technical data/comments, it really helps to use the right words.  All kinds of incorrectness in technical posts really removes the value of them.  People who don't know any better learn the wrong things, and people who do know better start to have to correct you or point things out that make no sense.  Arguing and peepants ensues.  

There's a smidgeon of logical argument, but it mostly comes across as "you're wrong and dumb!"  The Genny has more than 6 channels anyway, as did the x68k and many arcade boards from the same time period.

I already said, I meant the FM chip itself, which is 6 channels, since we're mostly talking about music and about progressing technology.  The old SMS PSG is irrelevant to that part.

lolgtfo and "you're high" are far from being insulting, at least in my book.  Maybe it's because I'm used to talking like that with my friends.  IM JUST A YOUNG, RAMBUNCTIOUS KID AND YOU'RE ALL OLD FARTS. =3. lol.

It usually takes a little trolling, or at least trolling disguised as opinions stated abrasively and obnoxiously to cause some "sandyvag".  In turn, the offending troll usually had some sandyvag in the first place, which incited said trolling.  While I realize what you're posting has some validity in there... somewhere... your "shotgun approach" to posting the abrasive and bitter shit isn't just pissing off your target audience (in this case Tom), it's getting on other peoples' nuts here too (namely mine).  

It's not trolling or trolling in disguise.  It's debating technical crap and opinions on something.  Not everything that is a disagreement is trolling.  Soon the word troll is going to become meaningless because it's misused too much.  Soon there won't be any disagreeing or debating on forums without someone going OMG STOP TRORRLING.  Trolling is stirring shit up for no reason other than to stir it up or bother someone.  I'm debating this shit because I like this shit.  The PCE sound chip is my favorite, and I'm going to defend it.

I'm surprised you of all people are worked up over any talking that is abrasive/bitter.  lol.  One day you're all THATS JUST ARKHAN, and now its THIS IS BOTHERING MY NUTS.

There is plenty of validity to what I've said, and some people have managed to respond.

As far as not having it out for Tom, don't be coy.  We all know you don't like the guy.  We can all see it clearly when you respond to his posts with extra-abrasive vigor, even for you.  Hell, you've even said as much, that you're not fond of Tom.  Therein lies the problem... While I agree that having multiple projects in the works and finishing few is a tease and maybe even a bit irresponsible, it's no reason to have everyone else on this forum endure your personal grudge every time Tom posts something.  If you're having some kind of marital spat with another member on this forum, take that bullshit to PM or something.

There's a difference between having it out for someone, and not liking them/thinking they're an idiot (and expressing it vocally when it comes up, sometimes with others!).  My reasons for this stem from a handful of things, not just the project ADD.  Some of it is from occurences here, some from IRC.  Everyone's guilty of not really liking someone, and voicing it.  Case in point: Everyone vs. Gravis.  

However, NONE of that has any influence on my disagreeing with him on this topic.  If it had been someone else posting the same kind of thing, I'd disagree just as much.  To be honest, I read the post before I read the poster name, and was already disagreeing.  Disagreeing is disagreeing.  There's no grudge involved with this crap.  It's coincidence.  You guys are holding my grudge for me.  That's dumb.  If I were holding a grudge I'd start pulling up all kinds of shit Bonktom has said over the past couple years, or some PMs, or who knows what.  The closest I've come to that is referencing that awhile ago Bonktom said "its just a step up" and now its "a large step up", or something.  

the reason it's "everytime Bonknuts posts something", is because he basically only posts when its some kind of technical debate, or a chance to disagree with someone else.    You gotta look at it from every angle here dude.

PS: You just brought up external crap about BonkTom, not me. lol

Like I said, it's not always about being right or wrong.  Sometimes its about how you present your argument.  I can tell you, personally, if somebody came up to me in real life with a disagreement and was at least somewhat civil about it, I'd return the favor and have a civilized discussion about it.  If they came up to me spouting off about how I had a "sandyvag" and calling me a pussy right off the bat, that's a good recipe for getting knocked out... and I'm not even a violent person!  Sometimes it's not about who's right or wrong, sometimes it's about personal respect.  If someone's not going to give me enough personal respect to hold at least a somewhat civilized discussion about something, I will make no guarantees the situation won't escalate to physical violence, because it seems that's what the other person wanted all along anyway.  My point is, if you're bitter or butthurt about some other member here, fine, but don't make the rest of us suffer by derailing an entire thread into a flame war between the two of you.  Use the PM feature or go hunt him down on IRC if you want to be over-the-top abrasive and generally annoying about it.  It's like getting into a yelling match at a crowded restaurant.  Take that shit elsewhere.

Allow me to point out the following:
1) I generally always post like this.  I don't really think I posted much out of the ordinary.  Maybe Bonknuts is reading it wrong because HE is holding something against me.  "OH ITS ARKHAN HES BEING MEAN HE HATES ME WHAAA WHAAA WHY WONT HE LEAVE ME ALONE" or something.  I don't know.  It's just another post, as far as I am concerned.  
2) The topic wasn't derailed until Bonktom whined and is convinced I'm out to get him. Before that, and before everyone started chiming in about it, the thread was perfectly fine. So, don't blame me for derailing this shit.  It was already flying off the sandyvag tracks, so now I'm just dancing on the sideways boxcar as it tumbles down a mountain.
3) I'm not looking at trolling or pissing Bonktomnuts off.  That was an accident.  If he doesn't want me to respond to his technical yammering that I may disagree with, he should ignore me using the built in feature.  Purposefully instigating with Tom isn't worth my time.  Defending the PCE sound chip however, is totally worth my time.  

Now that THAT'S off my chest, yes, PCE sound is king... or at least Prince of PSG.  Though, I wish more was/would be done with the LFO feature using channels 1+2.  I'd bet you could get some pretty FM-like sound qualities (nice sounding low notes and such) using that.

I might get to some of that crap soon.  If I'm not too busy getting on everyones nuts.

[FraGMarE]

Ark, look at it like this....

I'm in a restaurant and I'm hungry as fuck, sitting down and getting ready to enjoy a big, greasy Reuben sandwich with french fries and a tall, cold beer.  I'm just about to bite into it, when I see you walk in and, Tom, sitting a couple tables over says something to you I didn't really pay attention to.  A few seconds later, you're in each others' faces yelling about sandy vaginas and shit and it's pissing me off, because i'm just trying to enjoy my goddamn sandwich.  So finally, I stand up and tell you BOTH to either the shut the fuck up or go outside with that bullshit.  That's essentially what I'm doing here... the restaurant is this forum, the sandwich is this thread, and you and Tom are, well... you and Tom.  SHUT THE FUCK UP OR LEAVE, I'M TRYING TO EAT A GODDAMN SANDWICH IN RELATIVE PEACE HERE! 

[roflmao]

Ark, look at it like this....

I'm in a restaurant and I'm hungry as fuck, sitting down and getting ready to enjoy a big, greasy Reuben sandwich with french fries and a tall, cold beer.  I'm just about to bite into it, when I see you walk in and, Tom, sitting a couple tables over says something to you I didn't really pay attention to.  A few seconds later, you're in each others' faces yelling about sandy vaginas and shit and it's pissing me off, because i'm just trying to enjoy my goddamn sandwich.  So finally, I stand up and tell you BOTH to either the shut the fuck up or go outside with that bullshit.  That's essentially what I'm doing here... the restaurant is this forum, the sandwich is this thread, and you and Tom are, well... you and Tom.  SHUT THE FUCK UP OR LEAVE, I'M TRYING TO EAT A GODDAMN SANDWICH IN RELATIVE PEACE HERE! 

qft.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Except you don't go to a restaurant expecting debates/arguing.

You should expect it here.   You don't have to read this stuff. Just scroll past it if you don't care.  It's only bothering you because you let it. duhrr.

If this were real life, with real yelling, and real sandwiches, I'd agree completely.

I don't tend to cause scenes, believe it or not.   Most of my arguments are short/to the point, yet they are also abrasive and vulgar, just how I like em.   If it starts to get heated, I throw up gang signs and walk away, lol

[Arjak]

*Facepalm*

Arkhan, I like you. I think you can be a great, fun guy, and you've usually stood up for me when I've said something that I felt was true that I feel strongly about.

However, I have to agree with fragmare on this one. Reading your last few posts, I feel like you really are getting too abrasive. I don't like the idea of you having to negate any good points you have by insulting someone in the same sentence. I also don't agree with the excuses you've made; things like, "It's just who I am," or, "This is the internet, this is how things work. Deal with it."

I remember when I made a post a while back about everyone being too sensitive and hateful on this forum, and you agreed with me, via PM. But now, I feel like you might be becoming part of that very issue.

You talk about how disagreeing with someone isn't the same as trolling. That's true...until someone throws a needless insult. I don't know the history between you and Bonknuts, so I won't comment on that specifically, however, insulting someone because you don't agree with them is what you're doing right now, and it hurts your argument greatly. It also makes you look like a troll. I know that's not the whole case; you have made great contributions to the PC-Engine community, like Insanity, but could you please try to dial back the obnoxiousness a bit?

I'll let all of you in on a little secret: I was once...like Nintega. I was obnoxious, angry, insulting, and easily butthurt. I was also 14 years old, but I was still being very immature. Overtime, I grew out of that bull. I'm now 22, and though I still get riled once in a while, I have tried to remain civil when I can. I don't think anyone here could logically accuse me of being a troll, here and now.

It used to be "just who I am." Then I changed for the better. If I can go from being like Nintega to being a good, helpful member of Internet society, can you please try to have discussions without throwing insults, Arkhan?

[Arkhan Asylum]

pre-Bonknuts peepantsing, the closest thing I did to throwing an insult was saying "you're high".  

I don't sugar coat shit when I talk.  Not in person, not on the internet.  Most of this is people reading it the wrong way, or assuming I am going for the throat.

The point is, things were fine until I was accused of something I wasn't even doing.  I don't give a shit if it was Bonknuts, you, Necromancer, spenoza, fragmare, whoever.  I disagreed about crap, quoted it, put reasons why, and then got accused of OMG TROLING YOU HAVE IT OUT FOR THEM QUIT IT STOP IT.

I got more abrasive than usual AFTER that though.

From now on maybe when someones spewing things I disagree with, I'll just let it stay.  That'll be productive.  Misinformation, unchecked opinions, and crybabying prevailing.  That'll be great.  We can have a forum where all we do is agree.  All disagreements can be ignored.  Everyone's right about everything, always.  even if they're wrong!

[BigusSchmuck]

I think the biggest opportunity lost was that there weren't enough Arcade Card games. Call me weird, but having gsmes like Metal Slug and Puzzle Bubble Bobble would have been great. Oh yeah and a duo with a built in arcade card and super grafx capabilities would have been nice.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I think the biggest opportunity lost was that there weren't enough Arcade Card games. Call me weird, but having gsmes like Metal Slug and Puzzle Bubble Bobble would have been great. Oh yeah and a duo with a built in arcade card and super grafx capabilities would have been nice.

There definitely needed to be some arcade card shooters besides Sapphire. 

a Super Arcade Duo would've ruled too.  Though, I really like the life-support looking super grafx + rau 30.

[NecroPhile]

You don't mean stupid crap like comma use and "posting like you're talking out loud", do you?  That doesn't exactly count.

Your silly typos and grammatical errors don't count but Tom's do.  Gotcha.

I already said, I meant the FM chip itself, which is 6 channels, since we're mostly talking about music and about progressing technology.  The old SMS PSG is irrelevant to that part.

Don't quite a few Genny games make tunes with the FM chip and let the PSG do the sound effects?  Without the 'irrelevant' PSG, wouldn't the songs suffer having to give up a channel to do what the PSG is handling?

[spenoza]

Arkhan, I like you in person. I am not, however, the biggest fan of your forum posts. You do good work for the community and you seem to know your technical stuff, but I find it frustrating that you express your opinion in such a blunt, abrasive manner. Don't pull your punches, but don't go name-calling. You make it sound as if not being in-your-face abrasive is somehow unnecessarily softening your tone. I disagree. I think there's a neutral tone that is perfunctorily polite that you are neglecting. Do not become some kind of aggressive, ranting internet crusader. OMG, someone on the internet is wrong! So what? Discuss, issue a correction, contend their assertion. It's done all the time on polite terms.

Sometimes I get emotionally invested in being right, even if the issue is about opinions and not facts. It's when I get emotionally invested that I say things that get me in trouble. Perhaps Bonknuts falls into this trap occasionally, too. You can take that as an opportunity to correct me and get me back on track, or you can can poke the bear. You seem to relish poking the bear. Nobody is going to come around to your way of thinking just because you are "right". They are going to come around because you give them a reason to. Poking the bear does not give someone incentive to agree or to get on the path of right knowledge. All it does is irritate folks.

I believe you can still be a productive member of the community and a subject expert and not compromise your personality and still ratchet down the rhetoric and the tone of your posts. When you post abrasively you are making a choice to do so. If that choice gets people annoyed with you, it's not their fault for not recognizing that this is just "how you are." It is your fault for making the choice to communicate that way despite the fact that you know it gets on people's nerves. You have every bit of control over how you choose to communicate on this forum, and that makes you responsible for how you come across. How you are perceived in this community has everything to do with how you choose to interact with it. It is no more or less complicated than that.

I've gotten a little better at following my own advice over the years, but I still have a lot of ground to cover. This is my admission that this little lecture is somewhat hypocritical. For all my failures, however, at least I am trying.