Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...

[deubeul]

...So that's still PC Engine.

I get your points, SAM, even if I don't totally agree.

But stardust entering the scene and claiming that the way I and most of other old timers perceive the PCE library is wrong, with his BS excessively too long arguments, starts to upset me a little.

[StarDust4Ever]

...So that's still PC Engine.

I get your points, SAM, even if I don't totally agree.

But stardust entering the scene and claiming that the way I and most of other old timers perceive the PCE library is wrong, with his BS excessively too long arguments, starts to upset me a little.

You know, I thought about that. But no matter how hard I try to cram it, that CDR simply won't fit into the Hucard slot! I should really shut up now...

[SamIAm]

I get your points, SAM, even if I don't totally agree.

Thanks.   

StarDust4Ever seems like a typical noob. I don't think he means any harm or disrespect. If he hangs around a little longer and keeps enjoying his games, I'm sure he'll be an asset to the community, and also realize that we like to keep things a little more succinct.

Like I'm one to talk. 

----------------
EDIT: Screw it, we're all tired, and I think we've all said our pieces.
----------------

We may be getting caught up on semantics! 

That's what this whole dumb argument amounts to, probably, but it's always fun to try and express one's ideas and interpretations.  O:)

[deubeul]

...So that's still PC Engine.

I get your points, SAM, even if I don't totally agree.

But stardust entering the scene and claiming that the way I and most of other old timers perceive the PCE library is wrong, with his BS excessively too long arguments, starts to upset me a little.

You know, I thought about that. But no matter how hard I try to cram it, that CDR simply won't fit into the Hucard slot! I should really shut up now...

I understand, man, that won't fit.

You came here, exposed your point, and asked us our.

We answered.

We respect your noob point of you.

Please respect our 20years old PCE lovers' point of view too.

[esteban]

Is a HuCARD a card or a cartridge?

Discuss.

 

[CrackTiger]

Anyway, I think gamers did get something more with games like Ys 1&2. Put that on a 4mb Hucard (heck, put it on two of 'em), and I guarantee nobody would care about it like they do now. It would just be another (good) game. The same goes for a lot of CD games.

Most CD games are comparable in content size to Sega and Nintendo carts. The fact that you're using 4 meg cards as an example us once again exposing your true intention of taking a round about way to "prove" that CD games couldn't be done on stock hardware. SFC got 48 meg games + add-on hardware compression. The Legend of Xanadu II would be smaller than 48 megs if you dropped the few redbook tracks and streaming voice acting. Even if you kept all of the sound samples in as non-adpcm channel samples. The chip tunes still sound great. Dracula X is a <16 meg game without the crappy cinemas.

As a Genesis fanboy, the day I became determined to get a TG-16 with Turbo-CD was the first time I saw screenshots of Ys I & II in a magazine. It was a dream come true, because the SMS version had such an impact on me. Seeing the ingame visuals blew my mind. Particularly the ruined column in Zepik Village. I continued to dream about the in-game content. A few cinematic pics thrown in only sweetened the deal. I'd give anything for a HuCard version today.

[NecroPhile]

I learned something today.

When I play Gate Of Thunder, I'm not playing on PC Engine.

OK...

Heh.  Did you know Metal Combat isn't really a SNES game?

[TurboXray]

You came here, exposed your point, and asked us our.

We answered.

We respect your noob point of you.

Please respect our 20years old PCE lovers' point of view too.

And that's all this boils down to; noob point of view VS 20 year PCE veterans.

 I just wanted to say that I agree with what elmer said about technical side of things. I know that most members here don't have the luxury of really understanding what's under the hood of the PCE and to code for it, but CD games really are nothing more than Hucard games. Loading data from the CD does not change that. It's the same hardware, same cpu, same coding style, etc.

 There's this argument that hucards aren't large enough, or whatever, to handle CD games. Most CD games aren't that large, if you re-organized the data assets for redundancy (same code used over again per level, or sub level. Same graphics used over again, main sprites, enemies, etc, for levels and sub levels) - they'll realistically fit on a cartridge. If the CD format never took over at the dominant format, you would have seen an evolution of hucard technology. Those "bubbles" in SF2 and other hucards? There's nothing inside of them. There as lot of room for space AND advancement of hucard technology. Did you know that Street Fighter 2 could have fit under a regular hucard format? They extended the PCB only because they didn't want to use a single large rom (they used multiple roms). Anyway, the point is - is that you would have seen audio enhancements (either via hucard, or via backplace addon), you would have seen hucards with memory mappers, on board ram (populous already adds 32k of ram), etc. The CD format stopped this from happening. Any game on CD, is possible on hucard format (with the exception of FMV, but regular cinemas are fine). Obviously not Red Book audio. The CD audio part is an upgrade, the rest is just a format medium delivery mechanism.

[elmer]

Most CD games are comparable in content size to Sega and Nintendo carts. The fact that you're using 4 meg cards as an example us once again exposing your true intention of taking a round about way to "prove" that CD games couldn't be done on stock hardware. SFC got 48 meg games + add-on hardware compression. The Legend of Xanadu II would be smaller than 48 megs if you dropped the few redbook tracks and streaming voice acting. Even if you kept all of the sound samples in as non-adpcm channel samples. The chip tunes still sound great. Dracula X is a <16 meg game without the crappy cinemas.

The SFC got precisely 2 48Mb(it) games, and 48Mb(its) is 6MB(ytes).

I've read that Star Ocean packs 13MB of graphics into 4MB, leaving 2MB for code and audio.

Xanadu 1 has approx 6MB of compressed files, plus 0.1MB code, plus 15MB of ADPCM, plus 527MB of CD audio.

Xanadu 2 has approx 9MB of compressed files, plus 0.1MB code, plus 1MB of ADPCM, plus 553MB of CD audio.

The software compression in the Xanadu games get approx 2.1-2.5x compression, and the hardware compression in Star Ocean gets approx 3.2x compression.

If you want to compare Star Ocean's 13MB graphics in 4MB, then Xanadu 2's 9MB of files decompress into 23MB of data (which mixes code and graphics).


The thing to me isn't that the basic size of the graphics is or isn't comparable, it's that from a developers POV, on the CD I can afford to do whatever I wish to do, and the cost-of-goods for the game isn't going to increase.

Cartridges cost a lot of money to make, and bumping up from one size to another could totally change the financial projections for the game.

CDs are cheap to make, and I can get my 59MB of uncompressed Xanadu 1 voice overs, plus 527MB of CD audio voice overs and music, and I can make the player's experience more immersive.

So I've got to both agree and disagree with folks ... while the basic gameplay isn't going to be really any different if I'm limited to a HuCard ... it's all the extra details that enhance the "experience" that developers could deliver when the CD medium freed them from worrying about cartridge sizes that makes the most difference to me.

That's why the PC Engine is so special. It's the very first time that developers could afford to deliver that kind of enhanced experience.

It's still the same darned machine that's delivering the experience, it's just the medium of the game's delivery that makes the CD an affordable way to manufacture/distribute that game.

[GoldenWheels]

As far as people new retro gamers coming to the PCE scene and trying to figure stuff out - they get the "buy a Duo" advance.. and what did they almost always do? Buy the hucard only systems because the Duos are too "expensive". Then complain about their upgrade options, followed by a defensive claim that CDs are a different "platform". Why? Because they bring their Sega/Nintendo centric views into the picture and think they know better or whatever. If you don't want to buy Duo on top of that TG16 or PCE that you bought, then fine. Don't enjoy the rest of the majority of PCE awesome titles. Limit yourself to hucards and division addon mentality. While you at it, slap a SegaCD sticker on your CD setup if you do eventually get one. I'm sure it'll make you feel right as rain.

I made this very mistake, albeit for different reasons. I A: never thought I would be interested in the CD library (no idea why), and B: knew of the caps issues after a little research and was just plain paranoid to buy one. That was all before I found this place and learned more about the CD library and found reliable folks who refurb duos. So the step-bro gets my turbografx for xmas and I am out a few extra bucks I didn't need to be.

I have since told at least two people seeking advice"just get a duo, I can point you to a safe place to find one" and what did they do....bought a Turbo. The circle continues....

[elmer]

Basically, I still think that PCE-CD game = PCE game as an unquestionable truth is dubious.

When it comes to any system, game hardware or otherwise, an addition or modification that comes at such an extreme cost and makes such an extreme difference in the system's capabilities could arguably be said to make it a different system altogether.

Sam, my friend, you're really hung-up on the cost of the CD-ROM2 add-on when it came out. 

IMHO, a Ferrari is still a "car", even if it costs more than a Ford.   

Back in 1989 I had no trouble at all in seeing the CD-ROM as just an add-on.

To me, it was no different from home computers that loaded their games off of cassette, and then you could buy a 3", 3.5" or 5.25" floppy drive as an expansion, and developers often provided "more" on their floppy releases ... and then eventually abandoned tape altogether.

And "yes", back in the early 1980s, a floppy controller and dual floppy drives could easily cost you far more than the original computer.

To me, regardless of how they conceived it, how they built it, or how they advertised it, the way that the end user experienced it is a really big deal.

I didn't have one of these back in the day, so maybe I should just shut up, but I am incredibly skeptical that people who bought the CD system assumed that they were merely getting Hucard games on a hi-fi format. I suspect they thought they were getting something more. You know, like Dragon Quest x1000.

No, of course you knew that you were getting "more", that was the point of buying the add-on!

And that was precisely what developers could afford to deliver with the voice-overs in Ys, or the intro and music in Gate of Thunder.

But ... it's still the same PC Engine that's behind it all, you've just added a huge storage medium to it, and the ability play CD Audio.

Lots of home computers had add-ons, even audio ones.

I just don't see that any huge disconnect that requires classifying the PCE plus CD-ROM as a totally different machine to the PCE without the CD-ROM. That's just factually innaccurate.

Fact still remains there are a lot more working Hucard only systems floating about than working CD-ROMs so not everyone who wants one can have without paying a premium. Law of supply and demand. Some gamers will have to settle without the CDROMs. I unfortunately am one of them.

Am I missing something? I don't see any great shortage of realatively-affordable PCE systems that can play the CD games ... they're the Duo/Duo-R models.

The only real shortage is in North American CD-ROM2 and North American System Card 3.0 units to add onto a TurboGrafx.

If you choose to go that route, and pay the huge premium for those, then that's your choice. The Japanese units play the North American CDs fine without any modification. It's only the HuCards that have any region-protection.

And for that, then you can either region-mod the unit, or just "collect" whatever boxes you like and then play the game on the console with a TurboEverdrive, or you can keep your existing hardware.

I really don't see that you've got much in the way of grounds to complain about the $225 price for a recapped and working Duo when you've just blown a bunch of money on reproduction HuCards.

That's entirely your choice ... but IMHO it pretty-much undercuts your protestations of poverty when it comes to PCE CD units.

[GoldenWheels]

I really don't see that you've got much in the way of grounds to complain about the $225 price for a recapped and working Duo when you've just blown a bunch of money on reproduction HuCards.

That's entirely your choice ... but IMHO it pretty-much undercuts your protestations of poverty when it comes to PCE CD units.

Knowing Stardust from Atari Age I believe this is the case.  Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Lay off the 7800 homebrews for a while Stardust my man. Your duo will be paid for in no time. 

[SignOfZeta]

Yeah, if there's one purchase I'll never regret it's probably my first Duo.

[NecroPhile]

I sometimes miss the GB and games I traded in for it, but I've never regretted getting my first either.

I really don't see that you've got much in the way of grounds to complain about the $225 price for a recapped and working Duo when you've just blown a bunch of money on reproduction HuCards.

Indeed. 

[TurboXray]

All these salty people complaining about the price of a Duo; I beginning to doubt their commitment to sparkle motion..

[Gentlegamer]

Stardust, go talk to Keith Courage and get a cherried out Duo-R!

[crazydean]

If you need some money to buy a Duo, sell the TG-16 along with some of that Atari garbage.

[johnnykonami]

I'm surprised this became such a hot topic!  I'll throw my worthless opinion into this mix.  I got a TG-16 first, never got the CD-Rom attachment.  Then my TG-16 died on me and I got a Duo in 1992.  The upgrade at the time seemed significant to me - with the addition voice especially, followed of course by redbook audio.  The games themselves seemed more expansive/complex in a lot of cases no doubt due simply to storage space.  But even still I consider it part of the same family.  I think of it as analogous to the Genesis vs. Sega CD.  Same basic underlying hardware (I'm aware they added some more hardware features in the Sega CD itself) but in general games have the same style/vibe.  I think this is partly due to the characteristic video features of particular consoles, i.e. resolution, color depth, etc.  Think about the Genesis again, it has very characteristic video/audio qualities and they're both shared on the Genesis or the Sega CD.  The Duo is the same in my mind.  The same vibrant color quality, familiar resolution, etc. with lightened restrictions on memory and added redbook audio.  I'm not sure if any newer special chips were added (Like the Sega CD did with scaling, apparently).

[TurboXray]

I'm surprised this became such a hot topic!  I'll throw my worthless opinion into this mix.  I got a TG-16 first, never got the CD-Rom attachment.  Then my TG-16 died on me and I got a Duo in 1992.  The upgrade at the time seemed significant to me - with the addition voice especially, followed of course by redbook audio. 

A friend and I had the TGCD addon, before games went SuperCD, and they (CD 2.0 games) indeed felt more like the characteristic of hucards games in that connection. The SuperCD games felt more like an advancement to that (CD 2.0 games), but in the same way all consoles advance as the devs get more familiar with the hardware and competition between them (3rd part companies) raises the bar for expectations. I guess if you skipped original CD 2.0, SuperCD would have felt like a larger step. Even with the technology for 8megabit games on hucard, most hucard games during 1992 were less than 8 megabits (which was more of the standard for consoles of that generation). I'm not sure if that was a price thing NEC did in order to promote/encourage CD development and discourage hucard development, or if hucards were just relegated to "budget" titles as CD games became the premium. I'm sure the truth is somewhere along those lines.

[johnnykonami]

all consoles advance as the devs get more familiar with the hardware and competition between them (3rd part companies) raises the bar for expectations. I guess if you skipped original CD 2.0, SuperCD would have felt like a larger step.

Yeah, this is a thought I had also.  Stuff just gets better all the time (even on the same platform).  Progress is basically inevitable.  I know I didn't have experience with SFII, Parodius, Bomberman '94, etc. before switching over to CD, so certainly those close the gap even more.  And yep, for me, CD-Rom and SuperCD are basically the same thing since I started buying/playing both formats at the same time.  I can't really tell too much of a difference between those.  Hell, Spriggan is a CD-Rom game and one of my favorite looking shooters on the system.  Could have easily mixed it up with a SuperCD title.

[StarDust4Ever]

I learned something today.

When I play Gate Of Thunder, I'm not playing on PC Engine.

OK...

Heh.  Did you know Metal Combat isn't really a SNES game?

Yes, it is. I also have the bazooka shaped Super Scope for what it's worth, if that's what you're getting at. I have a handful of titles for it. Yoshi's Island is a nice diversion.

[StarDust4Ever]

You came here, exposed your point, and asked us our.

We answered.

We respect your noob point of you.

Please respect our 20years old PCE lovers' point of view too.

And that's all this boils down to; noob point of view VS 20 year PCE veterans.

 I just wanted to say that I agree with what elmer said about technical side of things. I know that most members here don't have the luxury of really understanding what's under the hood of the PCE and to code for it, but CD games really are nothing more than Hucard games. Loading data from the CD does not change that. It's the same hardware, same cpu, same coding style, etc.

 There's this argument that hucards aren't large enough, or whatever, to handle CD games. Most CD games aren't that large, if you re-organized the data assets for redundancy (same code used over again per level, or sub level. Same graphics used over again, main sprites, enemies, etc, for levels and sub levels) - they'll realistically fit on a cartridge. If the CD format never took over at the dominant format, you would have seen an evolution of hucard technology. Those "bubbles" in SF2 and other hucards? There's nothing inside of them. There as lot of room for space AND advancement of hucard technology. Did you know that Street Fighter 2 could have fit under a regular hucard format? They extended the PCB only because they didn't want to use a single large rom (they used multiple roms). Anyway, the point is - is that you would have seen audio enhancements (either via hucard, or via backplace addon), you would have seen hucards with memory mappers, on board ram (populous already adds 32k of ram), etc. The CD format stopped this from happening. Any game on CD, is possible on hucard format (with the exception of FMV, but regular cinemas are fine). Obviously not Red Book audio. The CD audio part is an upgrade, the rest is just a format medium delivery mechanism.

Nothing inside the SFII bubble? That is news to me. I thought the bankswitch logic chip was too big for a glop top so they needed a "fat" card. I would definitely have liked to see have seen more bankswitched cards though.

= = = = = = = =

I still respectfully disagree that CDs and Hucards are the same format, however I'd like to take the opportunity to apologize for getting carried away with my trollish rebuttals. I think we can agree to disagree on the Hucard versus CD issues and appreciate that everyone collects different things.

[esteban]

A: They are different formats for the SAME PLATFORM/SYSTEM.  However, it is true that the user base was fragmented (since some folks had HuCARD-only consoles). Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to acknowledge THIS VERY REAL PROBLEM: fragmentation. To argue otherwise is silly! IF I CAN'T play a CD format game, then it is a very real obstacle that no amount of arguing can overcome.

Period.

/end

[StarDust4Ever]

As far as people new retro gamers coming to the PCE scene and trying to figure stuff out - they get the "buy a Duo" advance.. and what did they almost always do? Buy the hucard only systems because the Duos are too "expensive". Then complain about their upgrade options, followed by a defensive claim that CDs are a different "platform". Why? Because they bring their Sega/Nintendo centric views into the picture and think they know better or whatever. If you don't want to buy Duo on top of that TG16 or PCE that you bought, then fine. Don't enjoy the rest of the majority of PCE awesome titles. Limit yourself to hucards and division addon mentality. While you at it, slap a SegaCD sticker on your CD setup if you do eventually get one. I'm sure it'll make you feel right as rain.

I made this very mistake, albeit for different reasons. I A: never thought I would be interested in the CD library (no idea why), and B: knew of the caps issues after a little research and was just plain paranoid to buy one. That was all before I found this place and learned more about the CD library and found reliable folks who refurb duos. So the step-bro gets my turbografx for xmas and I am out a few extra bucks I didn't need to be.

I have since told at least two people seeking advice"just get a duo, I can point you to a safe place to find one" and what did they do....bought a Turbo. The circle continues....

Yep, sounds like my situation exactly. It's a legacy that won't die!

The fact that more Hucard systems exist in good working condition than CD systems means this legacy will continue for some time, at least until someone creates an Everdrive-like SuperCD expansion for the Turbo/PCe that uses SDXC cards for CD image storage. 

[StarDust4Ever]

Fact still remains there are a lot more working Hucard only systems floating about than working CD-ROMs so not everyone who wants one can have without paying a premium. Law of supply and demand. Some gamers will have to settle without the CDROMs. I unfortunately am one of them.

Am I missing something? I don't see any great shortage of realatively-affordable PCE systems that can play the CD games ... they're the Duo/Duo-R models.

The only real shortage is in North American CD-ROM2 and North American System Card 3.0 units to add onto a TurboGrafx.

If you choose to go that route, and pay the huge premium for those, then that's your choice. The Japanese units play the North American CDs fine without any modification. It's only the HuCards that have any region-protection.

And for that, then you can either region-mod the unit, or just "collect" whatever boxes you like and then play the game on the console with a TurboEverdrive, or you can keep your existing hardware.

I really don't see that you've got much in the way of grounds to complain about the $225 price for a recapped and working Duo when you've just blown a bunch of money on reproduction HuCards.

That's entirely your choice ... but IMHO it pretty-much undercuts your protestations of poverty when it comes to PCE CD units.

You got me there, I think. One can also argue about the space issue. My plate is full right now collecting Hucard games (both US and Japan games). And yes I've got the Everdrive but it's more fun to collect physical media. I've still got space considerations to think about but burning repros of CD games on CDR would be easy and cheap if the original game is unobtainable.

At this time I'm not looking to add a new system to my collection but may do so in the future. I really enjoyed getting the AV Famicom in addition to my NES so I didn't have to deal with adapters anymore. some day I'll get the Japanese Duo system (or an IFU briefcase).

I tend to jump from one system to another with my playing habits and right now I'm addicted to Turbo/PCe.

Knowing Stardust from Atari Age I believe this is the case.  Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Lay off the 7800 homebrews for a while Stardust my man. Your duo will be paid for in no time. 

LOL. Bob is one incredible homebrew factory! :p

And yes, my fiance does protest. Too much...

[NecroPhile]

Yes, it is.

Not when using Sam's logic, which was obviously my point.  Duh.

[StarDust4Ever]

I'm surprised this became such a hot topic!  I'll throw my worthless opinion into this mix.

I kinda knew I was opening Pancora's Box when I started this thread. Just wanted to see where it leaded.

Some of the discusion has been really enlightening though, and I've made up my mind to drop the trollish vernacular. I was arguing a losing side of the debate, so agreeing to disagree rather than try to win over my POV seems like the high road for now.

[TurboXray]

Nothing inside the SFII bubble? That is news to me. I thought the bankswitch logic chip was too big for a glop top so they needed a "fat" card. I would definitely have liked to see have seen more bankswitched cards though.

Nah. Here's a pic:


That the bottom side of the PCB (that faces down). The PCB is slightly longer, but there's nothing inside or under that bubble. You can clearly see the three rom chips (512k, 1024k, and 1024k, and the mapper which is the round blob). Just like the Arcade Card Duo, and that mapper is way more complex than this - still the same size (the round glop-top).

 The SuperCD ram was too little to handle a SF2 port (it needed to be at least 512k), and the arcade card wasn't finished yet (started development in 1992), so they released it on Hucard. Kind of a last huraah sort of thing.

[CrackTiger]

Most CD games are comparable in content size to Sega and Nintendo carts. The fact that you're using 4 meg cards as an example us once again exposing your true intention of taking a round about way to "prove" that CD games couldn't be done on stock hardware. SFC got 48 meg games + add-on hardware compression. The Legend of Xanadu II would be smaller than 48 megs if you dropped the few redbook tracks and streaming voice acting. Even if you kept all of the sound samples in as non-adpcm channel samples. The chip tunes still sound great. Dracula X is a <16 meg game without the crappy cinemas.

The SFC got precisely 2 48Mb(it) games, and 48Mb(its) is 6MB(ytes).

I've read that Star Ocean packs 13MB of graphics into 4MB, leaving 2MB for code and audio.

Xanadu 1 has approx 6MB of compressed files, plus 0.1MB code, plus 15MB of ADPCM, plus 527MB of CD audio.

Xanadu 2 has approx 9MB of compressed files, plus 0.1MB code, plus 1MB of ADPCM, plus 553MB of CD audio.

The software compression in the Xanadu games get approx 2.1-2.5x compression, and the hardware compression in Star Ocean gets approx 3.2x compression.

If you want to compare Star Ocean's 13MB graphics in 4MB, then Xanadu 2's 9MB of files decompress into 23MB of data (which mixes code and graphics).


The thing to me isn't that the basic size of the graphics is or isn't comparable, it's that from a developers POV, on the CD I can afford to do whatever I wish to do, and the cost-of-goods for the game isn't going to increase.

Cartridges cost a lot of money to make, and bumping up from one size to another could totally change the financial projections for the game.

CDs are cheap to make, and I can get my 59MB of uncompressed Xanadu 1 voice overs, plus 527MB of CD audio voice overs and music, and I can make the player's experience more immersive.

So I've got to both agree and disagree with folks ... while the basic gameplay isn't going to be really any different if I'm limited to a HuCard ... it's all the extra details that enhance the "experience" that developers could deliver when the CD medium freed them from worrying about cartridge sizes that makes the most difference to me.

That's why the PC Engine is so special. It's the very first time that developers could afford to deliver that kind of enhanced experience.

It's still the same darned machine that's delivering the experience, it's just the medium of the game's delivery that makes the CD an affordable way to manufacture/distribute that game.

This is something I've talked about for as long as I've been online. The actual technical differences and potential of what could be practically done and make good business sense for various formats and various consoles is quite a bit different from how it actually manifested. What made early CD games and the PC Engine library in general so special is that developers just happened to look at game development differently and with so much more variety of approaches.

SNES games tend to suffer from what I've called "cart syndrome" in the past, but it's just so much more noticeable and problematic in SNES games specifically. Too often assets are tiled poorly, excessively mirrored and painfully reused. A different balance could have been struck to achieve much less uncomfortably feeling aesthetics. Like designing the assets better for tiling and mirroring first. I've heard stories of how difficult it was developing under the shadow of Nintendo and how you had to send your samples to them to be converted and when you finally got them back after too long of a time, the results were random and you just had to base the size of the rest of the game around them. Looking at the extremes developers took to reduce sample space (speeding up and removing vowels), it really seems like the burden of all sample-based sound combined with pricey carts and the whole official Nintendo process had a heavy influence on the mindset of SNES game design.

It stands out most because of different Genesis cart games tend to be. Comparably sized games look and feel more like CD, computer or arcade games. By this I mean how fluid assets flow together and much less obviously repetitive they are, regardless of cart size.

But CD games cover the entire spectrum of how one might approach balancing assets within a set space. They're more like Japanese computer games up till that time, but still go off in different directions because of more bottlenecked segments, but unlimited potential quantity of superfluous sequences. Legend of Xanadu II has lots of superfluous elements that most people don't notice* and the redundancies would bring things down in size quite a bit. A HuCard version ported from the actual game we got could be extremely faithful with minor alterations, but I agree that without the atmosphere of PCE CD development, neither of those two versions would have wound up being made. But it doesn't matter how things turned out in an alternate reality because PCE CD games are real PCE games and we really have them, regardless of what collectors and console war enthusiasts say.

*The PCE/MD/SFC screenshot comparison thread revealed how much people miss extra details and take the SNES approach for granted. We continue to have people matter of factly say that Parodius Da! for SNES has everything in the PCE version, only better graphics and extra stages. But we've seen how much more animation and extra assets the PC Engine version has. The same has happened with so many games when we take a closer look.

If you need some money to buy a Duo, sell the TG-16 along with some of that Atari garbage.

Or just go back in time a week and buy a Duo instead of Soldier Blade.

HuCards are so much more expensive compared to CD games today that the logic of "price of entry" making CD games too expensive and therefore a separate console, just makes it impossible to take any of someone's arguments seriously.

[crazydean]

While we're on the subject of systems and their CD add-ons, does anyone know how the Jaguar CD relates to its base?

[SamIAm]

Most CD games are comparable in content size to Sega and Nintendo carts. The fact that you're using 4 meg cards as an example us once again exposing your true intention of taking a round about way to "prove" that CD games couldn't be done on stock hardware. SFC got 48 meg games + add-on hardware compression. The Legend of Xanadu II would be smaller than 48 megs if you dropped the few redbook tracks and streaming voice acting. Even if you kept all of the sound samples in as non-adpcm channel samples. The chip tunes still sound great. Dracula X is a <16 meg game without the crappy cinemas.

I am honestly stunned that I am reading this from you of all people. It is tantamount to saying that the things made possible on the PC Engine by a CD drive are actually superfluous.

This means that all those CD RPGs could have been every bit as good on the Super Famicom.

Sam, my friend, you're really hung-up on the cost of the CD-ROM2 add-on when it came out. 

Yeah, I do think the price matters, especially for the vast majority of gamers at the time i.e. kids. It's one valid perspective on the situation.

It's the old "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

You pay 25,000 yen, get a Super Famicom, you can now play a large library of Super Famicom cartridges, when you play them you're playing Super Famicom.
You pay 25,000 yen, get a PC Engine, you can now play a large library of PC Engine cards, when you play them you're playing PC Engine.
You pay 50,000 yen, get a Super CD, you can now play a large library of Super CDs, when you play them you're playing...Super CD?

*WHAP!*

Forgive me, sensei! I should have known that since it plugs into my PC Engine, I am still playing PC Engine. 

This, by the way, is why I don't think more moderately priced peripherals that only work with a few games and usually come with them anyway cause anything remotely like the bedrock fracture that the PCE CD system did.

If NEC/Hudson had been clear with their vision (and you know after the SuperGrafx/Power Console that those guys were half out of their minds), they would have at least had the sense to either call the Hucard system "Core Grafx" from the beginning and the brand umbrella "PC Engine" or stick with "PC Engine" from the beginning and call the whole thing "HE System".

Actually, HE System is the most logical name for everything. It's not like they never used it, either. How come we don't call it that? The warning on the first track of every Japanese CD game says "This is an HE System CD-ROM disc".

That's it, elmer. You and I are translating Xanadu 1 and 2 for HE System.

[StarDust4Ever]

Nothing inside the SFII bubble? That is news to me. I thought the bankswitch logic chip was too big for a glop top so they needed a "fat" card. I would definitely have liked to see have seen more bankswitched cards though.

Nah. Here's a pic:


That the bottom side of the PCB (that faces down). The PCB is slightly longer, but there's nothing inside or under that bubble. You can clearly see the three rom chips (512k, 1024k, and 1024k, and the mapper which is the round blob). Just like the Arcade Card Duo, and that mapper is way more complex than this - still the same size (the round glop-top).

 The SuperCD ram was too little to handle a SF2 port (it needed to be at least 512k), and the arcade card wasn't finished yet (started development in 1992), so they released it on Hucard. Kind of a last huraah sort of thing.

So we basically only got this wonderful Hucard gem based on a technicality. It seems like it must have been a very good seller, as the price was not high for a CIC despite being extremely popular with collectors.

Also the bankswitching works with the Everdrive v1 which presumably doesn't have extra RAM in it. How can the SFII ROM function on Everdrive if it needed 512kbytes of RAM to work on CDROM? Or are all those needed assets handled by bank-switching? The SFII ROM is 2.5Mbytes so I'm guessing it has the capability to swap out four 512kbyte banks worth of assets on the upper ROM while leaving the other 512kbyte program bank in a fixed location on the lower ROM. This all fits conveniently within the 1mbyte footprint allotted by the card bus.

This is something I've talked about for as long as I've been online. The actual technical differences and potential of what could be practically done and make good business sense for various formats and various consoles is quite a bit different from how it actually manifested. What made early CD games and the PC Engine library in general so special is that developers just happened to look at game development differently and with so much more variety of approaches.

Nice writeup on the pros and cons of asset reuse. I was watching a youtube longplay of Gates of Thunder, and I noticed they seriously went all out on the intro scenes. Normally with limited storage it is the gameplay that counts so all efforts are focused there first. Compared to most Hucard games, the intros were very short or only consisted of a static or briefly animated title screen combined with short gameplay segments on the demo loop.

If you need some money to buy a Duo, sell the TG-16 along with some of that Atari garbage.

Or just go back in time a week and buy a Duo instead of Soldier Blade.

HuCards are so much more expensive compared to CD games today that the logic of "price of entry" making CD games too expensive and therefore a separate console, just makes it impossible to take any of someone's arguments seriously.

LOL on the Soldier Blade. I ultimately got Super Star Soldier as well (imported the Japanese version) and SSS seems to be a closer spiritual sequel to Blazing Lazers / Gunhed compared to Soldier Blade anyway. Since it didn't come with a case originally, I settled for a loose card + sleeve.

And is it just me or does anyone else find it odd that US Soldier Blade appears to be going for cheaper than it's Japanese counterpart? That flies in the face of all logic.

Given the TG-16 upward pricing trend, if I decide I don't want SB anymore, I could easily wait a few months and flip it. The inflation is getting stupid. Sometimes it's a whole "buy now while you still can or forever hold your peace" type thing. Still kicking myself for letting Neutopia slip away.

Finally, it's not necessarily the money issue although Turbo/PCe collecting is kind of hurt on the wallet a bit. It's more an issue of "Am I ready to add/invest a new console/platform to my collection? Someday I will probably get that Japanese Duo or IFU Breifcase, but as I said, my plate is full.

Also Atari is not "garbage."

[TurboXray]

So we basically only got this wonderful Hucard gem based on a technicality. It seems like it must have been a very good seller, as the price was not high for a CIC despite being extremely popular with collectors.

Also the bankswitching works with the Everdrive v1 which presumably doesn't have extra RAM in it. How can the SFII ROM function on Everdrive if it needed 512kbytes of RAM to work on CDROM? Or are all those needed assets handled by bank-switching? The SFII ROM is 2.5Mbytes so I'm guessing it has the capability to swap out four 512kbyte banks worth of assets on the upper ROM while leaving the other 512kbyte program bank in a fixed location on the lower ROM. This all fits conveniently within the 1mbyte footprint allotted by the card bus.

SF2 on PCE doesn't use any extra ram. It's just the 8k ram of the stock system. I said if SF2 were to be made for the PCE CD, it would need at least 512k of ram, which is above and beyond the 256k of SuperCD.

 The PCE has a total of 2megabyte (16megabit) address range, but the upper 1megabyte range is reserved for addons. Though technically there at least 900k linear addressing available as open bus space that no addon every used, so 14-15megabit is the largest rom the PCE can officially handle without a mapper (but would need a chip for translating the address range - bank $88 to bank $EF).

 So the lower 1megabyte is used for hucard stuffs. SF2 splits this into lower 512k (fixed rom bank) and upper 512k (you map in one of four 512k sections of the upper 2megabyte rom; the lower cannot mapped or accessed this way). It's the simplest mapper ever. Game logic and sound samples are in the first fixed 512k bank, while the rest of the uncompressed sprite assets for the characters are in the mappable banks. It's right up there with the simplest NES mappers every used.

[SignOfZeta]

I learned something today.

When I play Gate Of Thunder, I'm not playing on PC Engine.

OK...

Heh.  Did you know Metal Combat isn't really a SNES game?

Yes, it is. I also have the bazooka shaped Super Scope for what it's worth, if that's what you're getting at. I have a handful of titles for it. Yoshi's Island is a nice diversion.

A "diversion"? Who are you, Thurston Howel III?

Yeeeeeazzzzzz, well I dabbled in Carnage Heart before a lark with Street Fighter III: Third Strike. Then I spend a moment or two with Romance of Three Kingdoms. It's all a blur in my life of high leasure. Huh haaaa! Yezzzzzz...

[StarDust4Ever]

I learned something today.

When I play Gate Of Thunder, I'm not playing on PC Engine.

OK...

Heh.  Did you know Metal Combat isn't really a SNES game?

Yes, it is. I also have the bazooka shaped Super Scope for what it's worth, if that's what you're getting at. I have a handful of titles for it. Yoshi's Island is a nice diversion.

A "diversion"? Who are you, Thurston Howel III?

Yeeeeeazzzzzz, well I dabbled in Carnage Heart before a lark with Street Fighter III: Third Strike. Then I spend a moment or two with Romance of Three Kingdoms. It's all a blur in my life of high leasure. Huh haaaa! Yezzzzzz...

I meant Yoshi's Safari, not Island. 

It's a nice change in pace from all those "blast shit up before it blasts you" type early FPS combat games. Some of the games that could have really benefited from Super Scope use actually don't work with it. Like the Wikipedia article quoted Revolution X as Super Scope compatible. It isn't.

[OldMan]

Though technically there at least 900k linear addressing available as open bus space that no addon every used.

So I -could- map in another 512K chip without bus conflicts?
Hmm, maybe I should learn to program a cpld (or whatever) chip....

[SamIAm]

In the interest of fairness, I'll share a couple of things I've just read on the PC Engine's Japanese wikipedia page.

HE-SYSTEM is a "standard" (規格), and the logo is used for licensing purposes. In other words, it seems like pure legal branding and not like a real title for anything.

Also, the article talks about the Core Concept (コア構想), an official term that I know I've seen elsewhere. The idea, as we all basically know already, was to have one heart, or one driving "engine" at the center of a variety of peripherals including different media formats.

Yes, from day one, that meant the CD system.

You know, I can come out of this with a renewed appreciation and deeper understanding of Hudson's inspiration, creative process and marketing, including their attempt to expand the very definition of what a console could be into a new direction. Mentally, I have revised the assessment I made in the very first sentences of my very first post in this argument from "PCE and CD = One system? Not from a user's perspective." to "PCE and CD = One system? Not necessarily from a user's perspective."

OTOH, I still stand firm that Hudson's crazy dreaming, for all the wonderful things it gave us, did not always materialize into reality in quite the way they first saw it. Their visions were not completely consistent and went in a lot of directions at once. Their naming alone couldn't have been that good, or else I wouldn't have to keep typing "the Hucard system" or "the base PCE" or whatever just to make sure you all know I'm talking about that one square-shaped white-or-grey thing that only plays Hucards.

If you want to think of the base-PCE-Hucard system, the SuperGrafx, the CD-ROM2, the Super System Card 3.0, the Duo and the Arcade Card as all fitting into one tight PC Engine concept, I wouldn't tell you you're wrong. Even I like to shorthand a lot of things as "PCE" when I'm typing up a message. However, if you feel that in reality, the systems and libraries naturally separate out into at least two very distinctive groups, Hucard and CD, and if you feel that there seems to be an honesty and simplicity from a user perspective to thinking of things on these terms...well, I'd agree with you.

That goes whether you're a western gamer in 2016 or a Japanese gamer in the late 80s/early 90s thinking to yourself "57,300 yen? 1000x storage capacity? Separate and exclusive game library? Pop idols and anime girls galore? Peripheral my ass; this CD thing's a console of its own!"

(How much do you want to bet that if Sony unveiled $1000 peripheral for the PS4 that fractured it this much, people would lose their minds and refuse to accept it as just a peripheral?)

Also, if you want to tell me that the CD system, for all it costs and for all it provides, is ultimately no different from a mouse or a lightgun and/or does nothing for software but make it a little higher fidelity or whatever, I reserve the right to suspect you've been smoking whatever Hudson was when they came up with the Power Console.

Speaking of which, can-of-worms time: is the SuperGrafx really a PC Engine, too, or was it a separate console? Japanese doesn't have plurals, so I can't tell you whether it was supposed to be Core Concept or Cores Concept. Call me crazy, but I suspect it was supposed to be the former initially.

Anyway, in conclusion, rather than inducting a newbie by telling him to think of the PC Engine as being more like 1.5-ish systems and having at least two different libraries, I think I'll just start by telling him it's all a goddamn mess and he better brace himself.

[StarDust4Ever]

Which all goes back to the "onion layers" side of things I mentioned earlier. Turbo/PCe collective libraries and hardware configurations are like a giant onion.

Software:

• Japanese Hucard
• US Hucard
• Supergrafx
• CDROM
• Super/CD2
• CD3
• Arcade

Hardware:

• PCe/Coregrafx
• PCe/Coregrafx + Tennokoe
• Turbografx
• Turbografx + Booster Plus
• Supergrafx
• PCe/Coregrafx + IFU "Briefcase"
• Turbografx + Base + CDROM
• PCe/Coregrafx + piggyback CDROM
• Supergrafx + piggyback CDROM
• PCe Duo
• PCe Duo R
• Turbo Duo

Then there are different classes of system cards needed to play the same CD games based on whether your CD unit has the extra RAM or not. The sheer variety of hardware NEC put out actually makes the Genesis/Megadrive revisions and addons look good by comparison:

Software:

• SMS
• Genesis/MD
• SegaCD
• 32X
• 32X CD

Hardware:

• Genesis/MD Model 1
• Genesis/MD Model 2
• + Power Base Converter (model 1)
• + Power Base Converter (model 2 - rare)
• + SegaCD Model 1
• + SegaCD Model 2
• CDX
• + 32X
• + SegaCD + 32X
• Genesis Model 3 (does not work with any add-ons)

Now look at how clean Nintendo looked by comparison:

Software:

• SNES/SFC

Hardware:

• SNES/SFC
• SNES/SFC Mini
• Super Game Boy

All SNES systems played all SNES games (regardless of what extra bits the developers crammed in the carts). Simple and elegant. Almost kinda glad the Sony/Phillips CD addon thingy failed...

@SamIAm: Good writeup on the Japanese thingy. It seems that Sony and Microsoft are both hedging their bets on incremental "version 1.5" upgrades to their consoles. Well it worked with New 3DS at least. But MS/Sony just claim they want to provide a smoother gameplay experience with their games. But developers are going to push their luck resulting in games poorly optimized for the "stock" console, or flat out not run, and then you have the fragmented userbase issue. They should take a look at the history of 4th gen addons to see why it's a bad idea.

[SamIAm]

All SNES systems played all SNES games (regardless of what extra bits the developers crammed in the carts). Simple and elegant. Almost kinda glad the Sony/Phillips CD addon thingy failed...

@SamIAm: Good writeup on the Japanese thingy. It seems that Sony and Microsoft are both hedging their bets on incremental "version 1.5" upgrades to their consoles. Well it worked with New 3DS at least. But MS/Sony just claim they want to provide a smoother gameplay experience with their games. But developers are going to push their luck resulting in games poorly optimized for the "stock" console, or flat out not run, and then you have the fragmented userbase issue. They should take a look at the history of 4th gen addons to see why it's a bad idea.

I love the elegance of the console concept, too, and I think it's a pity that it seems in danger of breaking down.

However, I'm really glad that the PCE got the CD system. If it hadn't, I think the story would have mostly ended sometime in 1992 even in Japan, and who knows if there really would have been a successor system in that case. But instead, we got a lot of years of games that were like nothing else. They had truly unbelievable music, and they made really fascinating (if occasionally clumsy) attempts at adding lavish cutscenes and voice acting to all kinds of genres to make the experiences into something higher. At times, the sheer quantity of content, even in the dumb fan-service digital comic games from later on, was simply immense.

I hope you get one someday. 

[elmer]

Though technically there at least 900k linear addressing available as open bus space that no addon every used.

So I -could- map in another 512K chip without bus conflicts?
Hmm, maybe I should learn to program a cpld (or whatever) chip....

Sure, just take a look at the map, there's plenty of space. Banks $A0-$DF for instance.

But I don't know why you would intrude on that area when you could just add a 2nd-level of banking like on the Street Fighter II card. 

You can add as many MB as you please by extending that scheme.

How much do you want to bet that if Sony unveiled $1000 peripheral for the PS4 that fractured it this much, people would lose their minds and refuse to accept it as just a peripheral?

You mean like a $399 PlayStation VR that's really going to need you to upgrade your PlayStation 4 to the new 4.5 Neo model in order to run it properly? 

No, you're right. Something like that could never happen these days! 

[NecroPhile]

CD3

What's this?  There's only three official CD formats (CD-ROM², Super CD-ROM², and Arcade CD-ROM²), so maybe you meant the GE games? 

Now look at how clean Nintendo looked by comparison:

Software:
Japanese Cartridge
US Cartridge
Data Packs
Nintendo Power

/SFC

Hardware:
SFC
SNES
SFC w/ S-Video
SNES w/ S-Video
SFC Mini
SNES Mini
Satellaview
SuFami Turbo (third party but licensed and required to play certain titles)

<< fixed >>

It's not so clean when made more consistent with how you did the PCE's lists and with missing stuff added.

Your lists are terribly inconsistent and omit a lot of stuff.  Why count the SFC/SNES and SFC/SNES mini, the three MD/Genny models, and the Duos as separate and distinct models but not the PCE, CoreGrafx, and CoreGrafx II; and why are you only counting the most obvious hardware revisions in the first place?  There's several hardware revisions within the main model designations (often internal only) that're just as important to the end user.... or rather unimportant.  And where's the Duo-RX LaserActive, LT, GT, TurboExpress, Shuttle, Teradrive, Nomad, MegaJet, WonderMega, WonderMega 2, Multi-Mega, Firecore, Amstrad Mega PC, or the Aiwa Mega-CD thingy?


TL;DR - I don't know if it's pro-Nintendo bias, more trolling, or if he's just plain uninformed, but stardust really doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

[OldMan]

Sure, just take a look at the map, there's plenty of space. Banks $A0-$DF for instance.

I knew the space was there, but I'm not an electronics guy so I wasn't sure if the banks were mirrored or not. I'd like to avoid any bus conflict, and it's nice to know they aren't active on the bus.

But I don't know why you would intrude on that area when you could just add a 2nd-level of banking like on the Street Fighter II card.

Because theres an easier way than creating a new mapper on a cpld

[StarDust4Ever]

CD3

What's this?  There's only three official CD formats (CD-ROM², Super CD-ROM², and Arcade CD-ROM²), so maybe you meant the GE games? 

TL;DR - I don't know if it's pro-Nintendo bias, more trolling, or if he's just plain uninformed, but stardust really doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

Well there are three system cards plus the arcade Pro so I assumed each one played a different class of CD games, with the highest class playing all of them.

Also how the heck is an SNES with Svideo cable a separate system? All SNES systems have Svideo out built in. There are no peripherals that change the system in a fundamental way that allows you to play new games you can't otherwise on a stock system. The lone exception is the Super Game Boy.

Sure the Everdrive may not play chipped games, but the carts simply work. You don't have to buy additional hardware if you have the game. My SNES, Genesis, and Turbografx are all stock base model. So I got the import adapter for Turbografx and cut tabs on the SNES for playing imports. The Genesis/MD library trumps the CD/32X add-on libraries in every way. In fact they were still making Genesis games long after the addons were discontinued.

Had the Duo come out in the late 80s, then there would be no issue with the library. It would be like the SMS with both cards and carts. Fact is, there is library fragmentation, therefore they aren't the same. Nobody refers to FDS disks as Famicom games, even though the Famicom had the equivalent of the Duo with the Twin system. Nobody refers to SegaCD as Genesis/Megadrive games even though Sega made their own Duo equivalent with the CDX.

Supergrafx is not branded as a PC Engine. The only reason Hucards and CDs are considered part of the same library is that they lack distinctive branding, which is purely a marketing decision. Hudson/NEC was still cranking out Hucard games in the US through 1993 and in Japan through 1994. And the late release Hucard games even had Duo branding on the packagining, at least in the US.

Furthermore, before anyone brings up enhancements like the N64 RAM expansion, it doesn't actually change the cart interface. The games that require it pluginto the same interface. No "piggyback" addons needed for Zelda MM, DK64, or Perfect Dark. The 64DD, however, like the FDS, is it's own system.

[StarDust4Ever]

Though technically there at least 900k linear addressing available as open bus space that no addon every used.

So I -could- map in another 512K chip without bus conflicts?
Hmm, maybe I should learn to program a cpld (or whatever) chip....

Sure, just take a look at the map, there's plenty of space. Banks $A0-$DF for instance.

But I don't know why you would intrude on that area when you could just add a 2nd-level of banking like on the Street Fighter II card. 

You can add as many MB as you please by extending that scheme.

How much do you want to bet that if Sony unveiled $1000 peripheral for the PS4 that fractured it this much, people would lose their minds and refuse to accept it as just a peripheral?

You mean like a $399 PlayStation VR that's really going to need you to upgrade your PlayStation 4 to the new 4.5 Neo model in order to run it properly? 

No, you're right. Something like that could never happen these days! 

VR will always be niche item and fail to penetrate the mass market. Just look at Virtual Boy.

[deubeul]

Supergrafx is not branded as a PC Engine.

Hmmm,  I don't have my glasses, could you read me what is written next to "Supegrafx", on this Supergrafx?

[StarDust4Ever]

Supergrafx games are not branded as a PC Engine.

Hmmm,  I don't have my glasses, could you read me what is written next to "Supegrafx", on this Supergrafx?

Fixed.

[SignOfZeta]

VR will always be niche item and fail to penetrate the mass market. Just look at Virtual Boy.

Ok, that was the stupidest thing you've said yet.

[deubeul]

Supergrafx games are not branded as a PC Engine.

Hmmm,  I don't have my glasses, could you read me what is written next to "Supegrafx", on this Supergrafx?

Fixed.

Hmmm,  I don't have my glasses, could you read me what is written next to "Supegrafx", on this Supergrafx game?

[mickcris]

Supergrafx games are not branded as a PC Engine.

Hmmm,  I don't have my glasses, could you read me what is written next to "Supegrafx", on this Supergrafx?

Fixed.

Hmmm,  I don't have my glasses, could you read me what is written next to "Supegrafx", on this Supergrafx game?

On the right it looks like it says 7UC and then 2 waffle fries.

[NecroPhile]

Well there are three system cards plus the arcade Pro so I assumed each one played a different class of CD games....

You assumed wrong, as the 1.0 and 2.x cards are both CD-ROM².

Also how the heck is an SNES with Svideo cable a separate system?

The same way a TG-16 with TurboBooster+ qualifies as a separate system.  It's handy to have, sure, but no games require it.

There are no peripherals that change the system in a fundamental way that allows you to play new games you can't otherwise on a stock system.

Wrong again.  You might want to research the Satellaview, SuFami Turbo, and Nintendo Power peripherals and educate yourself.

Supergrafx is not branded as a PC Engine.

Are you back to trolling or are you really this ignorant? 

Furthermore, before anyone brings up enhancements like the N64 RAM expansion, it doesn't actually change the cart interface. The games that require it pluginto the same interface.

And that's different from the PCE's system cards how exactly?